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Discussion: What's the rile

Posted Discussion
Dec. 8, 2023
hitnrun5
Men's 70
72 posts
What's the rile
Two strikes on batter with one to waste. Batter hits foul tip, straight back, catcher catches the ball and the ball does not go over batter's head. Is the batter out or is that his foul to waste?
Dec. 8, 2023
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1438 posts
It is only an out in USA Softball. All of the other major associations it has to be over the batter’s head. I have had to explain this to only USA Softball umpires when they do seniors.
Dec. 9, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
it's an out on the final strike..

1.29 • FOUL TIP
A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. EFFECT: The ball is dead on all foul tips and the batter is out if it is the final strike.
Dec. 9, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
hitnrun5.. 1 other thing.. this may be a local league rule where the batter starts with a 1&1 count
Dec. 9, 2023
Webbie25
Men's 70
2414 posts
Kenny, I looked it up also. 1.29 an out if it is the 'final' strike. That is probably what confused the umps. The batter still had one to waste and he did not consider it the 'final' strike. Dave, have you got a clarification on this? thanks.
Dec. 9, 2023
hitnrun5
Men's 70
72 posts
It was an SSUSA tournament. The umpire ruled it was the batter's foul to waste, not an out.
Dec. 9, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
I think the question is "what is straight back." I did extend my arm at a 90 degree angle and catch the ball on a line. I think everyone was surprised that I made the play so there is that. The call was made, short discussion, play resumes. Later more discussion with everyone and there was a general hmmmm. No animation or agitation just what if it happens in another setting such as world tourney. For the record, very good umpire.
Dec. 9, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
and I am pretty sure Kenny meant rule or maybe not.:-}
Dec. 9, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
how can the batter have 1 to waste if he already has 2 strikes UNLESS you are starting with a 1&1 count then they give you 1 to waste ?? a normal 4 balls/3strike count a batter would not get 1 to waste after having 2 strikes
Dec. 10, 2023
Webbie25
Men's 70
2414 posts
BJ, we were playing the standard SSUSA count stating with a 1&1 count and one foul to waste. The player took a strike and then foul tipped the ball to the catcher, but not over his head. Had he swung and missed, it would have been a strikeout. But the rule is there is one foul ball to waste. The rule, 1.29 states that a foul tip is out if it is the 'final' strike. Our question here is to define the 'final' strike. Is the final strike the foul tip that does not go over the catchers head and is caught by the catcher as the rule is applied in baseball, or does that rule only apply if the batter had already used his foul to waste. We feel we need a clarification.
Dec. 10, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
Webbie.. batter would be out if he had NO foul to waste
Dec. 10, 2023
Dbax
Men's 65
2100 posts
Even if you have a foul to waste, a caught foul ball is an out.
Dec. 10, 2023
stick8
1991 posts
Unless it’s changed SSUSA rules stipulate if a foul tip goes over the batters head and is caught by the catcher it’s an out. If a foul tip is below the batters head and is caught by the catcher it’s a strike—not an out unless it’s a third strike.
BJ is the go to guy on SSUSA rules.
In young mans USA and One Nation (which i umpire) a foul tip either below or above the head caught in the air by the catcher is an out no matter the count.
If the scenario in the first post were playing SSUSA rules that would be the batters waste.
Dec. 10, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
Dbax.. yes, even if you have a foul to waste, a caught foul ball is an out ..

a caught foul tip is only an out if the batter has 2 strikes and DOESN'T have a foul to waste
Dec. 10, 2023
Dbax
Men's 65
2100 posts
If a batter has two strikes and doesn’t have a foul to waste and tips the ball straight back, isn’t it an out even though the catcher doesn’t drop it?
Dec. 10, 2023
Dbax
Men's 65
2100 posts
Should read even though the catcher doesn’t catch it.
Dec. 10, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
It seems based on the discussion, there is never an advantage to the defensive team unless the ball goes above the batters head when caught with a foul to give. Personally doesn't make sense, with 2 strikes a caught ball is a caught ball regardless of height. Less than 2 strikes then it makes sense. DD you want to weigh in?
Dec. 10, 2023
Turning2
Men's 70
204 posts
With tournament using 1 - 1 count start, batter has a foul to give, correct, but if a foul fly ball is caught whether at the 300’ fence, even with 3rd base or straight back to catcher, a caught foul ball in this instance is an out
Dec. 10, 2023
Donna McGuire
65 posts
Picture it this way: A foul tip cannot be caught for an out. A ball fouled backward remains a foul tip in SSUSA play unless it goes higher than the batter’s head. Then it becomes a foul ball that can be caught for an out. So if a batter has a courtesy foul left, the foul tip cannot be caught for an out. (This also used to be the rule in ASA/USA play, but it was changed in 2006 to allow catchers the opportunity to make more outs.)
Dec. 11, 2023
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
first off what is a rile.......LOL..so once a batter has 2 strikes (regardless if there is an foul to give rule)and they swing and foul off the ball and it is caught,that's the third strike and the batter is out regardless of who caught the ball or how hi it goes.....straight basic ball....bada-boom,bada-bing......
Dec. 11, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
mad dog .. no to your bada-boom,bada-bing...

I suggest you go back and re-read Donna's explanation .. she has the bada-boom bada-bing
Dec. 11, 2023
stick8
1991 posts
Mad Dog I must disagree. Last tournament I played we had bases loaded with one out ( I was on first). Count on batter was 2-2 ( start with 1-1 with foul to waste) with a foul to waste. He hit pop up behind third which the shortstop caught in fair territory. That’s a foul out, not a third strike.
Dec. 11, 2023
stick8
1991 posts
Oops correction, shortstop caught in foul territory.
Dec. 11, 2023
nickname36
93 posts
"EXACTLY"

Why kill yourself trying to catch a foul ball when the batter has no fouls to waste, I wouldn't even move only
to retrieve the ball.
Dec. 12, 2023
B.J.
1105 posts
the main reason the defense should let a fly ball drop to the ground anywhere in FOUL territory when the batter has 2 strikes and no foul to waste is that it's a live ball and if there are runners on base they can advance after the catch
Dec. 12, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
Rabbit trail, off topic, bottom line - catcher has no reason to catch a ball not over batters head If SSUSA going to match other organizations for roster and box then conversely this rule should follow suit.
Dec. 12, 2023
titanhd
Men's 60
638 posts

Never understood the the ball "going over the batter's head" reference. ????
Dec. 13, 2023
stick8
1991 posts
BJ as usual you’re correct. That especially bodes true if you’re on base. That blinding speed you have you’d easily score from third. 😀
Happy holidays to you and yours!
Dec. 14, 2023
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
BJ,for one donna is wrong......any ball caught when a batter has 2 strikes on them (fair,foul or just tipped straight back to the catcher)is considered an out.....why b/c the batter had 2 strikes on them and swung and it was caught.....it doesn't matter who caught it or how hi it went.....
Dec. 14, 2023
SSUSA Staff
3487 posts
dog ... EXCEPT when the batter has a "waste foul left" to use ... Be careful when speaking in "absolutes" ... Donna is correct on this one ...
Dec. 15, 2023
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
i don't care how many fouls you have to give MLB has unlimited,"AS LONG AS THE BALL IS NOT CAUGHT"....but they are called out on a foul tips back to the catcher that is caught....what you people are saying he should be safe and allowed to still hit.....it doesn't work that way.....once you get 2 strikes on you any foul ball caught (including one straight back to the catcher,aka foul tip,) will be your third strike regardless of how many fouls to give...and you should be declared out....now if the ball hits the ground you get your extra foul.......so please show how a caught third strike is not an out in any play.......
Dec. 15, 2023
SSUSA Staff
3487 posts
dog ... Since this discussion isn't with regard to MLB rules, allow us to restate the SSUSA rules that govern our sanctioned play and differ from MLB ... Donna (and several others) remain correct in their analysis:
__________

Rulebook §1.29FOUL TIP
A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. EFFECT: The ball is dead on all foul tips and the batter is out if it is the final strike.

Rulebook §7.4 STRIKE CALLED BY UMPIRE
C. For each foul tip. EFFECT: The ball is dead and the batter is out if it is the final strike. NOTE: A foul tip may be a “waste foul."

Dec. 15, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
Here is where I think the "unclear concept," manifests itself.

Rulebook §1.29 • FOUL TIP
A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. EFFECT: The ball is dead on all foul tips and the batter is out if it is the final strike

What does directly mean? I believe directly means not touching anything other than the glove or hand, i.e. body, arm, leg etc.

I caught the ball with my glove perpendicular to my body, thus directly from the bat to my glove not above the batters head with 1-2 count one to waste.

I believe a better wording would be: A foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, (only) to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.
Dec. 22, 2023
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
STAFF,so your telling me i can get 4 strikes for an at bat....and by the way my thoughts aren't just for MLB,they are for all baseball or softball...so i can be at bat,have 2 strikes on me and foul tip it straight back to the catcher and he catches it and it doesn't count as an out.....is it the same if i miss the pitch with my swing.....also you have actually proved my point with your 1.29 foul tip rule.......i'm not trying to tell you what a foul tip is just that if caught when a batter has 2 strikes on them they are out.....just like you have stated.
Dec. 22, 2023
SSUSA Staff
3487 posts
mad dog ... §1.29 is in the Rulebook as a DEFINITION (of a foul tip) and is not the actual governing RULE ... That appears at:

§7.4 • STRIKE CALLED BY UMPIRE
C. For each foul tip. EFFECT: The ball is dead and the batter is out if it is the final strike. NOTE: A foul tip may be a “waste foul."

Your objection (confusion?) appears to be over the concept of the final strike that was created when we went to the 1-1 count WITH a "waste foul" for everyone ... Since the Committee allowed a foul tip to be that waste foul, there can be a theoretical 4th strike for the batter who still has "one to waste" in the count ... Accordingly, your assertion that a caught foul tip with two strikes on the batter is always an out is incorrect in that "waste foul" circumstance ...

Dec. 22, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
So why the extra level of confusion or determination. Why not; Any ball legally caught after 2 strikes is an out, regardless of height. Batter still has an extra swing if ball is not caught, but defense is awarded for effort and execution.
Dec. 31, 2023
Turning2
Men's 70
204 posts
REF: SSUSA Staff Dec 22, 2023 post

You have a bad rule (copied below from your post), you know you have a bad rule, yet too hard-headed to change.
,
§7.4 • STRIKE CALLED BY UMPIRE
C. For each foul tip. EFFECT: The ball is dead and the batter is out if it is the final strike. NOTE: A foul tip may be a “waste foul."

A waste foul caught by any fielder in the air should be an out (shouldn't it?), LF, RF, 3B, 1B, P, but not the catcher? if the batter can't hit any better than to foul tip a waste foul directly to the catcher, i think everyone will agree, this batter should be out.

Simply remove "NOTE: A foul tip may be a “waste foul." and all the controversy goes away.

Your sentence, "there can be a theoretical 4th strike for the batter who still has "one to waste" in the count....... is an abomination of the game, 4th strike?

You can correct this easily at your winter rules meeting, suggest you do the right thing. i don't think there is any legitimate argument not to make this simple change. 4th strike? Do 0ver? sounds like when we had a kid who couldn't get a hit no matter how many swings we gave them.
Dec. 31, 2023
softball4b
Men's 70
1248 posts
what he said
Jan. 1, 2024
mck71
Men's 60
344 posts
T2 - I realize you are an attorney and therefore LIKE to argue. I also get that you don't "like" the way the rule is written, ok, I can buy that. But "is an abomination of game, 4th strike", I mean that is a little too far IMO.

You start with a 1 - 1 count so you have 1 strike already. You then take a strike, that's 2. Now you have a foul to waste as they have played this rule for a few years. HOW you wasted that foul is what changes the AB from 3 strikes to 4, pretty simple and I believe doesn't warrant the word "abomination". Did you feel it was an abomination when they went to a 1 - 1 count? How do you feel about USSSA doing a 3 -2 count? Flip Flop rule? I mean it's still softball, big yellow ball comes in underhand.

We used to play 0 - 0 count and you got three strikes, now they start you with one and are ALLOWED a courtesy foul NOT CAUGHT. Agree or not agree, it's pretty simple (again, IMO) so the ONLY issue is whether we all agree on the foul tip caught as being a "waste foul" which based on THEIR rules, it is IF NOT THE FINAL STRIKE. You don't have to like the way their rules are written, I have seen that you have questioned the verbiage on more than one so you can simply write in your opinion in email or snail mail to the Rules Committee, that's the only way I have read on here that rules can be changed by we the players.

Wishing you all a happy and HEALTHY new year!
Jan. 1, 2024
Turning2
Men's 70
204 posts
Mck71 - SSUSA came up with 4th strike, not me. Your first sentence in your last paragraph is the problem, “…..now they start you with one and are ALLOWED a courtesy foul NOT CAUGHT”
Maybe in a different country or different sport or different age group you get a 4th strike. The ball was CAUGHT, by a defensive player. My reasoning is sound, but I appreciate your rebuttal, have a good 2024 also. I think this rule will come under some scrutiny in the winter rules meeting, maybe, maybe not.
Jan. 1, 2024
titanhd
Men's 60
638 posts
Turning 2,I agree with you to the pint that it is a bad rule.The intent of the 1-1 count was to speed up the game. The real fix is to get rid of the extra foul.
Jan. 2, 2024
mck71
Men's 60
344 posts
T2 - Technically SSUSA did not "come up with the 4th strike", the rule of a courtesy foul with a 1-1 count has been around a while actually. SSUSA and ISSA simply implemented this rule in their format so both assoc. have a possibility of a 4th strike as well as any other assoc. that uses 1 -1 with a courtesy.

Now I agree with titan that the 1-1 count was made to speed up the game, as an umpire I always appreciated that. I also believe that the courtesy foul was implemented as we USED to have a 0-0 count so 1-1 with a courtesy, it does speed up the game a little but not as much as a straight 1-1 count no foul.

Mike I agree that a foul tip caught should be an out period (which would then make T2's reasoning sound) but until SSUSA feels the need to change that verbiage and result, it is what it is.

Possibly add to the NOTE: A foul tip may be a “waste foul." Please see Rulebook §1.29 • FOUL TIP for definition.
Jan. 2, 2024
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4312 posts
T2, titan and mck ... This really isn't all that difficult for anyone who can [1] count to 4 (and we spot you the first number "1" of the 1-1 count), and [2] can remember if they have used their "waste foul" yet once they have successfully counted to 3 ... Really, that's all there is to it! ... Happy New Year everyone! ...
Jan. 2, 2024
Turning2
Men's 70
204 posts
DD - sarcasm aside I can't find a ball, strike, out indicator for sale anywhere that has the #4 available on the strike dial?

What i find to be less difficult is to amend your rule to the reasoning that "a caught foul ball by any defender is an out"

Exception: in 3-2 count system, 1st and 2nd foul tip direct o catcher are strikes, any foul is an out for 3rd strike, caught or not caught

Exception: in 1-1 count system, foul tip directly to catcher that is caught or not caught for 2nd strike is a strike, if any "foul to waste" is caught by any defensive player, batter is out.

Happy New Year Dave and let me know when you find that 4 strike counter, buy one for all your SSUSA umpires!!
Jan. 2, 2024
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4312 posts
It's getting even easier than I thought! ... We don't have a 3-2 count system at any rating level or age of play, so you can toss out that "Exception" ...

Seriously, most T-ball kids I know are probably capable of figuring this out ... I appreciate someone having a little fun "mountainizing a molehill", but I would be embarrassed publicly admitting to not being able to figure it out ... If you have a language objection, write it up "your way" and send it in ... We've got 11 months or so until the next Rules Committee sessions ...

P.S. - I use the "inning" wheel on the indicator to track the number of runs across (5 or 7) in an inning ... That would work for up to 10 strikes, but not a single umpire to date has failed conceptually on this! ... Happy New Year!

Jan. 2, 2024
Turning2
Men's 70
204 posts
DD, I see the 2023 Rules Committee meeting under the Tournament drop down menu, has the 2024 Rules Committee meeting been held? if not, can you advise date and thanks, T2
Jan. 2, 2024
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4312 posts
The National Rules Committee met during the first week of December in Ft. Myers (Estero), Florida ... Those sessions established the rules amendments that appears in the Minutes accessible from the pink priority message of this website for the current 2024 Season ... The Committee will meet again in late November or early December this year, somewhere in the Western USA ... If you want to put something together, 11 months should be plenty of time ...
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