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Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
May 6, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
You make the call
Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run.
Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double. Runner at third has touched home. Runner from second is between 3rd and home when the batter-runner passes the runner from first between first second. Whatís the ruling?
May 6, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
SSUSA Rule 8.4(10) When Runners are allowed to advance

para E When a fair ball bounces over or rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. Also when it deflects off a runner or umpire and goes out of play. EFFECT: The ball is dead, and all runners are awarded two bases.

Home team wins with two runners scoring on ground rule double as all runners are awarded two bases.

stick8 you're getting good at interjecting these little "zingers" into your umpire calls but as soon as the ground rule double is declared, any further action on the field is negated that may affect the three runners on base along with the batter. You made no mention of any runners missing any bases, etc and one must assume that they are smart enough to run the remaining bases in order to provide the winning runs.

What the home team coach should do is 1) kick the runner, that was on first for not running full speed with two outs and 2) also dish out same punishment to the batter for passing the dummy that wasn't running from first to second.

I know the next thing someone is going to interject is "what if the runner passed the runner before the ball bounced over the fence?" highly unlikely but, as an umpire, i would rely on the rule above to effect the end of the game, without question.
May 6, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
stick8 you failed to mention that the batter would have also had to pass the runner on first base before he then chased down the runner from second and passed him before reaching home plate.

this is like a fantasy story gone bad!!!???
May 6, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
i stand corrected you were talking about the runner on first being passed and only that the runner from second hadn't reached home plate before the passing of the first base runner.

Ground rule double, all runners AWARDED two bases without incidence.
May 7, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
Letís call runner at third R3, at second R2, runner at first R1 and the batter B1.
Your correct that is the ruling but due to what occurred in this situation it becomes a timing play. R3 coming in from third touches the plate scores. Since R2 had not touched the plate when B1 passed R1 going from first to second his run would be disallowed since it was after the third out of the inning (B1 passing R1 on between first and second)
Senior ball might be different so Iíll defer to BJ on that one.
May 7, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
Iíll admit that Iím not 100% sure that a timing issue would override a ground rule double, automatic award of two bases to everyone involved on the play and a dead ball which would negate any further action, but Iím 100% sure with two outs in any kind of ball, with all runners running at crack of the bat a batter wouldnít have time to pass the runner on first before the ball bounced over the fence.

But these kind of odd or unusual game situation rulings you come up with are definitely fun to think about, discuss, and research the correct answers. Iím going to stick with mine for now, as this is what I think would happen in a real game situation


May 8, 2021
B.J.
973 posts
stick... great scenario...and as written I'm going to agree with you.. even though this becomes a dead ball after going out of play and it's ruled a ground rule double ALL the runners must still complete their responsibilities.. since the runner from 2nd didn't score before the B/R passed the (senior moment) runner that was on 1st I would have the 3rd out and 1 run scores
May 8, 2021
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1386 posts
Stick8, I have read this a few times but can't get beyond Runner at third has touched home. Senior softball there's an out. Forgive me, just amusing me.
May 8, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
Refer to USA/Asa Rule 8 Section 5. Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out.
Para I. When a fair batted ball: 1. Bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any boundary of the field.
Effect: A: The ball is dead. B: All runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.
May 8, 2021
B.J.
973 posts

T2... ok so you say that with rule8 sec5 that a runner cannot be called out for not fulfilling his duties...

just because it's a dead ball and bases are awarded runners must still "properly advance" ...

what if using this same scenario with the runner on 1st after the ground rule double was awarded the runner walked past 2B without touching it and went straight to 3rd or if the B/R never touched 1st base and went straight to 2nd... ... they would be called out on a proper appeal by the defense and in either case the runner is out and NO runs would score
May 8, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
B.J. You are correct, if when instructed to advance the two awarded bases any of the runners fail to tag, in order, the two bases, an appeal for such infraction trumps the written rule that I referenced.
May 14, 2021
B.J.
973 posts
I just found this from a USA/ASA umpire questions site.. on whether base runners have to fulfill their responsibilities on a dead ball situation.. this is a fast pitch scenario but I believe it would also be used for slow pitch

April 2017 Clarifications and Plays ..

Play (Fast Pitch) R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B and two outs B6 hits an over the fence home run. In the act of running the bases B6 passes R3 in a) after R1 and R2 had touched home plate and in b) before R2 touches home plate. The plate umpire should rule:

Ruling: In a) when B6 passes R3 they would be called out and two runs would score since R1 and R2 had scored prior to the third out. In b) when B6 passes R3, they would be called out and since this is the third out the only run that would count would be R1. Rule 8, Section 7D and Rule 5, Section 5B

Even though the ball is dead, by the definition of a dead ball all base runners have live ball base running responsibilities. The issue of runs scoring now becomes a timing plays as it is whenever the third out of an inning is recorded before or after runs score.
May 14, 2021
DCPete
406 posts
???
NO ONE runs the bases on an over the fence Home Run; the Batter and all the Runners just stop where they are and return to the bench . . .
May 14, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
B.J. - Not to be obstinate (as I fear I am under scrutiny by one of the moderators), but if that 2017 clarification, for an over the fence home run, would apply to slow pitch there would not be a single reference to show it applies only to (Fast Pitch) DCPete hits the mark for slowpitch in all age groups and associations.
May 14, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
T2 ... Don't flatter yourself ... Maintain proper decorum and respect and you'll be here for a while ... Gratuitous swipes at Message Board administration by someone we can't even find in our player registration database is probably inconsistent with that admonition ...
May 14, 2021
marcster13
100 posts
If the runner at third touches home shouldn't that be the third out?
May 14, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
Yes, you are correct marcster13. Good catch.
I should have typed in touched the scoring plate or crossed the scoring line.
May 14, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
T2, Iím not understanding something here.
You stated that in my scenario you wouldnít call the BR out for passing the runner going from 1st to 2nd. You would rule ground rule double, runners get two bases without incidence.
In BJís scenario you stated if the runners fail to tag in order the two awarded bases that would trump the written rule as you specified.ówhich is correct.
Why wouldnít my scenario trump the written rule?
May 14, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
Stick8 - refer back to my post of May7, BJ post of May8 and my post of May8. I read the original post as ground rule double, dead ball, all runners awarded two basis from their starting location at time of pitch. I conclude that the batter/runner would not have time to pass the runner ahead of him before the astute umpire forcefully declaring ďground rule double, dead ball and all runners awarded two basesĒ and directing the runners thusly. But the rules do allow for a dead ball appeal for missing a base so that I agreed with BJ.

Maybe I live in real time situations but I already addressed in earlier posts that ďany runners on base with two outs should be gone like a rabbit and not passed before the umpire made the above rulingĒ.

We can suppose, assume, etc and if Iím guilty of this so be it. I simply try to show a real world analysis, supported by the rules as written, and finally use many years of experience and best judgment to provide a well called game for both teams.

If we disagree, Iím not trying to be the end all to every situation, just contributing like everyone else to these threads.
May 14, 2021
Full Count
41 posts
Let's take the facts as listed. Runner on 1st. Thinks his run doesn't matter so mental misstake, he just watches the play not moving much. The hitter focusing on the hit does pass the runner at 1st. Before the ump calls ground rule double. What's the call ? I don't
know lol
May 14, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
T2, Iím not trying to be critical of you, but your rationale the B/R wouldnít have time to pass the runner going from first to second is strictly conjecture on your part for the purpose of this rule discussion.
If the rules allow for a dead ball appeal for missing a base why would they not allow for a runner passing a runner on the bases?
May 14, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
Full Count, I have the B/R out.
May 15, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
stick8 - copied below is your original post and below it i have added or inserted some additional information that if you will either amend your original post or answer the questions, i think there are rules that will get us to a final decision on this play.

ORIGINAL POST: You make the call Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run. Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double. Runner at third has touched home. Runner from second is between 3rd and home when the batter-runner passes the runner from first between first second. Whatís the ruling?

1. You have posted that there was a ground rule double. Since the plate umpire is the only person on the field that can determine this call, did this umpire loudly and forcefully declare "ground rule double, dead ball"?

2. While this umpire was observing the ball either bouncing over the fence, passing thru or under the fence, what happened on the field PRIOR to his declaration. And what happened AFTER his declaration.

including this information should allow application of the SSUSA rules, I think............


May 15, 2021
stick8
1951 posts
T2, no need for you to split hairs. And you have not answered what you would rule. And you havenít answered any of my questions.
You cited itís a ground rule double, runners are awarded two bases, thatís correct.
You also stated the BR wouldnít have time to,pass the runner going from first to second before the ground double ruling is made. Thatís conjecture on your part and doesnít state what the call should be.
When there is a dead ball and bases are awarded, all base runners, as BJ correctly put it, must fulfill live ball base running responsibilities. That includes not passing a runner on the bases.
With all this experience you cleaim to have Iím surprised you donít know this.
May 15, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
154 posts
Stick8 - Iíll gladly attempt to state rule and effect for your situation as best I can. There are several rules, as well as parts of rules that come into play, I think. But clearly defining the sequence of events, as they happen, in order, dictates the applicable rule that I think determines the umpires ruling. So if you can better define the two questions that I posed, Iíll do the best I can. I may or may not be right, and I donít want to argue but without a bit more definition in the original situation I donít think I can answer. Clearly I havenít been clear in my earlier attempts, sorry.
May 15, 2021
jimperry19
58 posts
Geez. I miss Wayne.
May 15, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
That's hilarious, Jim ... I've gotten two texts and one email in the last two days expressing that exact sentiment! ... [grins]
May 15, 2021
jimperry19
58 posts
Dave you are the man. Thanks for everything you do for us and thanks for getting the Reno bracket out so quickly. Hope to see you there.
May 15, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Thanks Jim ... I'll be at Golden Eagle for all nine days of the run ... It's nice to be off the 1Ĺ year "Medical D/L" and back in the ball park! ... See you there!
May 21, 2021
txnighttrain
107 posts
This is an interesting scenario and one the National UIC for USSSA sent out to all umpires. This was his ruling: This is a timing play. If the run or runs scored prior to the runner being passed by the batter base runner they count. If not the don't. This was the ground rule double situation. Even though the ball went dead, runners must still advance properly
May 22, 2021
B.J.
973 posts
DD... (That's hilarious, Jim ... I've gotten two texts and one email in the last two days expressing that exact sentiment! ... [grins]) ... remember I said it in a SICK kind of way... lmao
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