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Online now: 3 members: Ace99Sherwood, B-LO, TABLE SETTER 11; 120 anonymousDiscussion: Get rid of the 1-1 count
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| May 3, 2018 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Get rid of the 1-1 count Senior Softball has turned into a pitchers game. Without being able to take a pitch, as a batter, you're now looking at a 1-2 count if the first pitch is a strike. One to waste is crap. A flat pitch thrown and not called by our umps, is hard to foul off. Give back a little equalizer, go back to 0-0 none to waste. Wanting to speed up the game is just rushing the game. Set a time limit so a game can be enjoyed. Senior Softball already rushes the game by starting the clock as soon as the coins been flipped. By the Time the actual first pitch is thrown, we've already lost about 4 minutes of a 55 minute game. Let us enjoy the game. |
| May 3, 2018 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | OK, we'll do this one more (but probably not for the last) time : SSUSA considers potential rules changes only one time per year, at the ISA/SSUSA Annual Convention in late November ... This year's Convention and Rules Committee sessions are in Las Vegas during the week of November 26th ... The sessions are open to the public, so you may make your case for change(s) via personal appearance OR by prior submission of identifiable written correspondence in the form of a conventional letter or email ... NOTE: Message Board commentary is specifically excluded from Committee consideration due to its generally anonymous and often factually deficient content, both of which prevent follow-up inquiries ... |
| May 3, 2018 marcster13 102 posts | I enjoy the one and one count (we get no extra foul). It's a hitters game and allows for more overall at bats since more innings are played. If the first pitch is there go ahead and take a whack at it. It may not be the cookie the batter wanted inside or outside but if its a strike the ball is coming in slow enough to change your predetermined batted ball placement. Fouling a ball off in slow pitch softball to "stay alive" sounds kinda funny to me. Just sayin. |
| May 3, 2018 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | tallthunder-one point you obviously dodn't know is that SSUSA tacked on 2 minutes to the start of the game and the clock starts right after the flip a couple years ago. If both teams are ready to hit the field, it will start on time. If not, you are losing playing time. It is all up to the 2 teams. As far as the 1-1 goes, if it is a strike, you should be able to hit it. Why is it so important to be able to take a strike? This is not baseball, but a lot of us (me included) were coached to take a strike IN BASEBALL. I might do it now if there have been a couple walks in a row, but I am ready to hit the first strike I see. This is softball-we have hot bats-good balls (rock) when not using the Stote in hot weather, the pitcher has to hit the mat with his pitches to get a strike, we have height limits both ways (high and low), and outside of a few good knuckleballers and a few that can bend it some, most pitches come in straight. I also know a lot of pitchers that throw a couple balls intentionally to a lot of batters believing it helps get them out and this rule makes them throw more strikes. I play 65M++ but we have played 60M this year and got in 7 innings almost every game without rushing with the 1-1. I like it. And I hit about the same with either count. Mark Weber Timberworks |
| May 3, 2018 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Dodn't? My new word for the day! Don't fits better. |
| May 3, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | Thanks marcster13 and Webbie25 ... This thread ought to be good for a 100 or so redundant "I like it" / "I don't" (or is it Dodn't?) posts! ... Nothing said here is going to result in any change, but maybe it's therapeutic to type about it! |
| May 3, 2018 tall_thunder Men's 50 82 posts | Yes SSUSA STAFF, I'm aware of the November meeting, and when changes are made. My discussion didn't say change it tomorrow, it's a discussion for others to see and weigh in. Just curious to know, did a player go to that meeting requesting you to change to a 1-1 count, or was it a director that brought it up. And Webbie25, if we're getting an extra 2 minutes, our coach is not aware of this, and we the players wouldn't know unless he was told. There's no running score board with a clock to know this. FYI, last Tournament in Vegas, we got to the 7th inning only twice out of 5 games. Just saying. |
| May 3, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | tall thunder, the problem is these rules are thought up under almost sterile laboratory conditions and softball, especially senior softball is anything but that. So many things impact our game it's laughable to envision the hallowed meeting room conference table with the pontificating board even contemplating such a means to 'speed up the action'' If and when the action is speeded up who exactly determines that the resulting 'action' is quality action or just speed for the sake of speed? That is an intangible that could vary as much as the individual games themselves. Want more quality 'action', then try starting out with a 2-0 count. (sarc) |
| May 3, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | Neither ... It has been on the annual Rules Committee Agenda for about as long as I can remember, at least 10 years, and until the 2016 sessions, had failed implementation every time ... We have also done "member preference polling" on three occasions over the last 11 years, the most recent in December, 2017 ... In 2016, the "1-1" count was implemented for the 40-Masters (only) divisions on a one-year trial basis ... That trial-basis was made permanent for the 40-Masters divisions last fall, and was implemented for the 50+ thru 60+ Men and 50+ Women for the current season, based on TWO factors ... [1] The member preference polling in December resulted in those age/gender groups mentioned above favoring the "1-1" count by more than a 20% margin of votes ... That is generally described as a "mandate" in political terms ... The full results of that polling have been on this website for months ... Go to the Rules Committee Meeting Minutes post from January 9, 2018 and read the attachment ... It has the complete polling results by age, by gender and by geographic regions of the SSUSA ... The results were appropriately deemed by the Rules Committee to be compelling ... and [2] The results achieved in the 2017 Season for the 40-Masters in the context of the percentage of games reaching the 7th inning surprised even us, with the percentage being above 98% ... Simply, it worked ... So the answer to your question as to "who did it" is the membership, and a Rules Committee that was willing to give them what at least 60% of them asked for as their desired pitch count format ... You may well be in the (shrinking) minority on this, but I'm sure it will find its way back on the agenda in November ... |
| May 3, 2018 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | tall thunder-every team was told and almost no one seems to remember, but I was there when it was implemented. You can save a couple minutes by being ready. And SSUSA has no control on the scoreboards. I agree it would be nice to see the time........but then again I can see teams stalling too much....... In Mesquite we played 8 games and I think all went 7 innings except maybe the 28-27 game. But my main point is this is NOT baseball and I don't think we should NEED the 4-3 count. Everybody wants to hit. Why should we be able to wait for 'cookies'? We're already spoiled! |
| May 3, 2018 tattooball 774 posts | Really it's a pitchers game? They still throw a big yellow ball under hand at 20 mph, and we get to hit them with super bats at people and at great distances. Maybe you would like a ball cannon so you will never make an out, just point and shoot. Come Monday morning you can brag how great you did at the water cooler competing in a great hobby. Get rid of the composites and go back to a .47/525 then 0/0 count might be warranted. Mt apologies to all I have offended. |
| May 3, 2018 maskedman Men's 60 51 posts | no apologies necessary tattoo. i been preaching against composites from their beginning. |
| May 3, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Original comment mentions about a 55 minute game time??? From what I could see in the ssusa rule book game time for seeding games are 65 minutes plus the 2 minutes they allow from the time immediately after the flip. Keep in mind, that in order to get a game to go the full 7 innings, all you need to do is complete 5 innings in under the 65 minutes because you will have begun the 6th inning so you get to complete that inning plus the open inning. The time then increases to 70 + 2 in the bracket games, therefore five innings in under 70 minutes with same explanation as above for the 6th and 7th. Btw, I voted for the 1-1, play in the 65s so our games do begin with 0-0 and in our most recent tournament in Tidewater, all of our games went the full 7. The 2 biggest time savers from what I could see were getting on and off the field quickly and having your courtesy runner available ASAP. For those of you who say you are unaware of the remaining time, give your catcher the assignment of checking with the umpires time piece after each inning you are in the field. The umpires from what I can see hang it on the backstop during the game. |
| May 3, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | k man ... Your question illustrates the perfect example of why we completely ignore message board commentary at the Rules Committee sessions ... We don't have a 55-minute game time component, never have ... But a random, anonymous and factually inaccurate assertion of same gets this thread off on a logically failed start! ... You have it right: 65 (+2 = 67) minutes for Seeding, 70 (+2 = 72) for Bracket, and 7-innings for Championship game(s) is correct ... The general theory is that if you can't get on the field and ready to play in two minutes from the end of the plate conference, that consumption of time is rightfully on the teams, and not us ... |
| May 3, 2018 SS13 40 posts | I pitch sometimes and bat leadoff, the 1 and 1 count is the best thing that's came along in awhile. Now we're playing 7 innings, not the usual 5 or 6. It is slowpitch, if it's a strike hit it, it's not batting practice, it's a game. |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | I guess if your criteria for the 'best thing' to come along in awhile is simply to play a full 7 innings I'm glad your happy. I'd prefer that the individual game run through that SAME amount of time at it's own particular gait in that instance. I believe SSUSA had this 1-1 in their sights for awhile now. Once exhaled, it's tough to get the smoke back into the cigar. I'm sure come fall we'll be treated to all sorts of analytical data extolling the greatness of the 1-1 but not a shred to whether the enjoyment of the game has improved or for that matter stayed the same..... |
| May 4, 2018 grayhitter59 Men's 60 345 posts | Yeah, give me back my black magic and put in a blue dot or red dot and let me run around the bases when one goes over the fence! I don't recall the time limits back in the day, games pretty much ended after 7 and the count was 0 & 0. I missed out on playing latter part of the nineties because of coaching my son. I enjoyed when I or a teammate hit a HR and we celebrated at home plate. Today someone hits one out and it's par for the course. As far as the 1 and 1 I really don't care if the first pitch is strike I am swinging, what ever the starting count is. |
| May 4, 2018 maskedman Men's 60 51 posts | anyone ever play in a one pitch tournament? sure you have. scoring is crazy because everyone is swinging.the pitcher doesnt want to walk anyone so you get better pitches to hit.i didnt buy a $200 walking stick. SWING AWAY |
| May 4, 2018 SJV Men's 60 21 posts | Never saw a pitch I didn't want to hit. Like CLYDE POINDEXTER PHILLIPS says its slow pitch senior softball,underhand slow pitch senior softball.Just hit it. Playing for the love of the game and because I can. Get it close I will hit it. |
| May 4, 2018 STL0 Men's 60 231 posts | Just swing the bat. This subject has been beaten to death and then beaten some more. |
| May 4, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | Meanwhile, back at Reality Central the empirical data continues to show the rate of games reaching the 7th inning at ≥ 98% for the divisions playing the "1-1" count ... |
| May 4, 2018 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Meanwhile, back at Reality Central the empirical data continues to show the rate of games reaching the 7th inning at ≥ 98% for the divisions playing the "1-1" count ... this says it all... if you are that pathetic of a hitter that you need extra pitch to time a 18 mph softball, you should quit playing! 1 and 1 moves the game along..playing defense is a better game... guys have to swing! |
| May 4, 2018 marcster13 102 posts | MASKEDMAN- Love the $200.00 walkin stick comment! You may be on to something though. These bats do not come with a warranty. So maybe to make the bat last longer some want more walks? :) |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | "Meanwhile, back at Reality Central the empirical data continues to show the rate of games reaching the 7th inning at ≥ 98% for the divisions playing the "1-1" count ..." "I'm sure come fall we'll be treated to all sorts of analytical data extolling the greatness of the 1-1 but not a shred to whether the enjoyment of the game has improved or for that matter stayed the same..." Don't know that 65+ actually has a horse in this race.... |
| May 4, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | OZscar ... The 65+ division doesn't have a horse in this race (YET), including you, since you're only 61 ... But nice phrasing, though, since tomorrow IS Kentucky Derby Day! ... And we'll probably not have to be "extolling" anything ... If the statistical reality continues, the data will adequately speak for itself ... Carry on! |
| May 4, 2018 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Hey OZ-since you may be referring to me commenting at 65-we are the only 65M++ team now and have already played against the 60M teams so we have played both 1-1 and 0-0 this year. I admit I used to think in baseball terms because I played it so much, but this ISN'T baseball. I don't know why you need 3 strikes in this game. |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Gee Dave, leaking someone's personal information? That's kinda disappointing. Maybe there's an opening in the FBI for you. As I alluded to before there is no stat that accurately gauges quality vs. inning count. Web: because 2 is not enough and 4 is one too many. :-) |
| May 4, 2018 TimMcElroy 942 posts | OZ40- Quality is subjective, based on each person's expectations heading into a tournament. I'd argue that most players define a quality tournament on field conditions, umpiring, scheduling and whether or not the tournament stayed on time. Heck, some people might have left Las Vegas 0-5 on the ballfield, but up $5,000 at the blackjack table. To them, that was a high QUALITY weekend. On the other hand, the percentage of people that grade a tournament based on the number of pitches actually seen vs the number of pitches potentially seen is extremely low. SSUSA's decision to consider alternative pitch counts (1-1 with a courtesy, 1-1 without a courtesy and 0-0) was driven by your peers and their stated desire to play 7 inning games (i.e. QUALITY). SSUSA entertained modified pitch count conversations only after the players spoke. Two months into the season, 98% of the games using a 1-1 count have resulted in your peers getting exactly what they asked for (7 inning games). |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Tim: "Quality is subjective, based on each person's expectations heading into a tournament. I'd argue that most players define a quality tournament on field conditions, umpiring, scheduling and whether or not the tournament stayed on time." So only the games that go 'the full 7' qualify for the criteria above? Is it impossible to have a 6 inning game that meets the above 'expectations'? And if those are the defining characteristics why the fixation on 7 innings rather than the full time allotment and the game just taking it's particular course for that game be it 4-5-6-or the full 7? |
| May 4, 2018 Keigley 3 posts | How could you ever call it a pitchers game when you know exactly the area where the ball is going to land. You have the best equipment known to man and you have a mat so it seems to me everything is favoring the hitter. Just one mans opinion. |
| May 4, 2018 TimMcElroy 942 posts | That is not at all what I said. I will break it down for you as simply as I can. Your peers (the majority) have said that playing a 7 inning game is more important than playing with a 0-0 count. |
| May 4, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | OZ40 .. You seem to be a big fan lately of the "cut and paste" posting approach, so we'll play that game with one from you ... __________ Jan. 10, 2018 • OZ40 • Discussion: Drum Roll...the Starting Count decision results. "PREDICTION: Believe me, I'm not a grassy knoll type of conspiracy person. That said and I hope I'm wrong, after this 'experimental count' season and everything shakes out, it will be realized that any time saved is inconsequential. The argument then will be along the lines of 'well that's because the batter still got a foul to waste'. Even though there will be no reliable stats to say how many players hit a foul, the next step will be another 'trial season' without the foul ball option. Following that, I believe that like many of the temporary taxes passed by our politicians that never rescind the 1-1 count will too be with us despite no solid basis to support it. I hope I'm wrong but......" __________ YOU ARE WRONG SO FAR, unless, of course, you (incredibly?) believe that playing 7-inning games more than 98% of the time this Season in the "1-1" count group isn't as high as it should be ... The mandate by the players favoring this change, and the context within which that mandate was evaluated by the National Rules Committee, was to maximize innings played ... It's difficult to fathom that giving them exactly what the super-majority of poll respondents wanted is somehow our error ... |
| May 4, 2018 OMD 38 posts | FAKE NEWS!!! |
| May 4, 2018 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | OZ40 .. We deleted your most recent post for being racist and derogatory on it's face ... Do NOT repeat that behavior ... You are a guest in our Message Board home and you will be escorted out if a repeat performance occurs ... |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | You are wrong, first definition to come up on a "Bing" Search of the term I used: Play the __ __ is a term used in parts of Britain meaning to be decent and trustworthy in one's actions. The similar American expression is "that's ____ _____ of you" with the meaning of "thank you for being fair". The origin of the phrase is obscure. So you are wrong and I certainly meant nothing near what you were imagining or thinking I meant. That is not my nature at all and I can provide team mates and acquaintances for verification if you'd like. |
| May 4, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Dave, thank you for using my forum name again (it's very professional of you to do so). I am wrong so far, and when does the season end? Get back to me when you can quantitatively rate the 1-1 vs enjoyment. I want to feel relaxed in the batters box, not like I'm waiting in the dentist's office. I have said it before that I and probably most hitters offer at one of the first three pitches. So why should I and others with similar plate habits forfeit the luxury of taking a pitch in the latter innings of a close game? |
| May 4, 2018 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | Be very careful on how you proceed now, O.Z. ... We really don't care what BING says ... "Perception is reality" and YOU LOSE since we are the sole arbiter of acceptable content, in this case racist and derogatory in the eye of the (only) beholder that counts ... As for your second post above, we are unable to improve on Tim McElroy's most recent clarification of his position ... He nailed it ... Your individual "enjoyment issue" is subordinate to that of the mandate by your peers who rate maximum innings over your "I need an extra pitch to take" comfort zone ... You lost ... Get over it ... But be very careful in the application of your cyclical redundancy in this matter ... There won't be a "Steve Howe" second chance ... That's NOT a threat ... It's a guarantee ... |
| May 5, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | I think anyone following this forum can see what's going on here and yes the organization does hold all the cards. I am not the only person on this forum guilty of 'cyclical redundancy' but I am the most vocal on this issue so I get it, no more 1-1 comment from me. |
| May 5, 2018 timmyb 27 posts | I don’t care either way , I will say this , the last 2 years I can count on 1 hand the games going full 7 I’ve played in , only played 2 tourneys so far this year , no one brought up the 1-1 in a negative way and every game has gone 7 ..... I dislike changeing the game , but so far sigh my limited application it’s been good , mynold cosch said we’re playing a kids game anyway Good luck to all , Timmy b |
| May 5, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | OZ40 ... We're not asking, nor do we expect, you (or anyone) to refrain from posting on any topic, just please do so responsibly ... Thank you ... |
| May 5, 2018 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | After the second tournament of the season, we have played 7 innings in 9 out of the 10 games. The one we didn't, there was an injury and the umpire may not have stopped the clock but whatever ... that's 90%. Last season we had a 36% 7 inning rate. Pretty simple. |
| May 5, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Dave, I'll keep that in mind. I honestly didn't know that I wasn't exercising responsibility. I thought responsibility was more in the area of not posting personal information of other forum members that was given in good faith without first getting permission to do so. I didn't know that by using a time honored well known colloquialism would brand me as a racist and put me under SSUSA's proverbial Sword of Damocles and place me on the very precipice of banishment. It's all good, it finally looks like winter may be over here in the north country so my posting on the forum will wane anyway. Everyone out there have a safe and enjoyable season, see you all at the fields. Oz |
| May 5, 2018 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Wow! A time honored well known colloquialism? Nice try. You should probably quit while your ahead. |
| May 5, 2018 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | Wow, anyone else think oz40 real name is Gary? |
| May 5, 2018 chico senior Men's 60 134 posts | How about Einstein? |
| May 5, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | OZ40 ... You seem to be bothered that I used your first name and the age group you are eligible to play in an earlier post ... Although that's not exactly a Cambridge Analytica/Equifax type data breach, if an apology is what you want, please consider it done ... I apologize ... And as long as you brought up the topic (again), here are some thoughts on the general concept of message board anonymity, which we generally allow until specific content forces us to take a closer look ... Many people go to great lengths to remain anonymous here, for any number of good and not-so-good reasons ... One of those, not present in all cases, is the belief that they can type just about anything they want, including things they would never say to your face if they were identifiable and, therefore, accountable ... And that's OK to a certain extent ... But most of those people are not nearly as careful or clever as they believe, and almost invariably type a multitude of clues in their posting activity leading to a relatively easy determination of who they really are ... Here's how easy it was in your case ... • Our Message Board back-end system records the originating DNS/ISP address for the origin of every post ... It was very easy to determine via "Reverse DNS" lookup where you are located when you post ... That gave us your likely city and state and your Internet Service Provider's name, but nothing else; • You are opposed to playing under the implementation of the "1-1" count, which logically places you in the 60+ age group or younger, but probably not the 40-Masters because of the relative scarcity of teams in that age group in your area; • Your history includes a few comments about playing in a specific regional qualifier event AND talks about a temporary closure to accommodate Little League at a local softball complex you identitfied by name ... Google is a friend in this circumstance, revealing that the location of those places is consistent with the DNS/ISP data on your locale; • Your history also talks about going to a specific T.O.C. a few years back ... Knowing your state, a look at the participating teams list from that T.O.C. revealed seven teams from your state attended that one ... Four of them were in the 60+ or younger age group, and we dismissed the other three 65+ or older teams as unlikely candidates; • As luck would have it, a quick look at the very first roster of those four teams revealed a player with the exact same first and last initials as are in your username ... Clicking on that player's name brought up your player page ... And the final piece of the puzzle was that your email address and the ISP from the reverse lookup have the exact same domain name ... BINGO! ... We couldn't have done it without your posting history content, and without you choosing a rather obvious username ... I guess the summary for this is simple: If everyone, regardless of whether or not they put their name in their message board profile, would type as though they were having that conversation in front of their immediate family and close friends, we'd likely seldom have to deal with questionable or unacceptable content ... It's a good behavioral model to follow ... __________ It also very likely this thread will be closed shortly to begin it's journey toward Message Board "Page Two Oblivion" |
| May 5, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | It's not so much that my actual name was used, (technically it wasn't) suffice it to say I'd not seen that before from you, and maybe I was just taken aback a bit and expected better stewardship of my information by this forum. Just because it can be 'figgured owt' should it just be put out there? But hey, whatever, I'm a big boy and that along the jibes from others I'm sure I can handle. As stated before, everyone have a good, fun, safe season and we'll see how all this plays out. See y'all at the fields. Dave, no apology necessary, but if it will ease your soul I'd settle for a blue Gatorade if we run into each other at the ball field. |
| May 5, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | No worries! I'll make it a double! Good luck and play safely this Season. |
| May 6, 2018 Sunshine1949 Men's 65 58 posts | Please close this thread, I think we have all heard enough, the decision was voted on and passed, if enough want to make a change then there is a process available to all, so exercise your rights or live with the current rules, thank you! |
