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Discussion: Still waiting for a rational answer

Posted Discussion
April 4
tugboat

39 posts
I would like to know the reasoning behind making a 67 year old AAA Player playing on a 65AAA team have to move up a classification just because he also was part of a 60 major team. If a player also plays on a younger team why does his rating change with his age group?
April 5
SS11

60 posts
If you were a major player as a 60 yr old (or even 63 or 64), you will be a major player as a young player entering the 65+ age group. You won't be considered a AAA player unless you appeal, however the team is ranked on a combination of players individually and overall team strength.
April 5
stever
Men's 70
99 posts
Becasue a 60 Major is equivalent to a 65 Major Plus and you can't play down two classifications (to AAA). Simple.
April 5
mck71
Men's 60
345 posts
tugboat, if you are looking for rational, let's try this - Not all players are created equal, some players even if they "normally" play older, play better than the age group they are currently in. Their hitting, fielding or overall play makes them valuable to a younger team and still be able to play at a high level, in your scenario, even a higher level! That said, playing "down" incurs risk, that the if you play 2 tourneys with that "higher" rated younger team team you will now PERSONALLY carry that rating index for 2 years (as stever said 60 M = 65M+) unless you appeal and it is granted, that is the rule.
April 5
tugboat

39 posts
True not all players are created equal; thus if you are an average player in your age group (65) why are you moved up because you happened to play on a good younger team that could absorb an average older player.

If you are 67 and you carry the younger teams (60) Major index for 2 years that is FINE. However, why should your index rating go up to M+ just because the younger Major team (that you know longer play for) moves up??
April 5
mck71
Men's 60
345 posts
Well, that would fall under the "incurs risk" in my post. And honestly, I believe most every team has above average players, average players and guys we just keep on the team so we can laugh at them (I could fall under that last category). So the "absorb average older player" comment doesn't really help your argument (IMHO).


My assumption is that SSUSA can't monitor EVERY player so they set up rules based on team(s) that you play for and you carry the highest rating index for the highest team you have recent history for, regardless of what THEY do (i.e. moves up and you don't play for them). I will also add that you keep mentioning "67 and average" but you still played for a 60M team, not sure why. Question: did you know the rule about player indexing before you made this decision? I ask because maybe you would not have played with the 60M team if it meant giving up the ability to play with the 65AAA team. Again, I would call the office as DD has always stated, there is always the appeal process, good luck!
April 5
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
Actions have consequences. Regardless of your interpretation of your skill level (average player in your age group (65) why are you moved up because you happened to play on a good younger team that could absorb an average older player) If the team wins you carry the rating.

It was your decision to play down for whatever reason (and it is not my intention to demean or have an opinion as to why you made that decision). I am also sure that every time you played you did your very best to help your team.

I have played multiple age groups for 10 years so I recognize the risks. As a member of the roster, even with a limited role, you take the risk of of being rated higher based on their results.

The team did well as a result you did well. Results are rewarded.

How can you change your circumstances?

Not here for sure.

Deal with SSUSA directly. Document your contribution to the team. Stats. Tourneys attended. Letter from manager indicating your contribution level. Medical conditions that may have manifested themselves or worsened.

Once you have exhausted all of your options to carry a different rating. You make the decision as to what teams may have openings for a player of your caliber.

I said all that to say this. SSUSA does make mistakes, they do make corrections when evidence is presented to the contrary, and they also know who might be understating their ability. Words are Words, Actions are Facts.

Mike Adair
April 5
SSUSA Staff

3534 posts
DEFINITIVE RATIONAL RULING • tugboat ... Despite our sincere suggestion to the contrary, you insist on pursuing this publicly ... If that's the way you want to do it, here's the complete facts and related rationale for our now final decision ...

FACTS
• You played in NINE SSUSA sanctioned events during the 2017 Season ... FOUR were with a moderately successful 65-AAA team (Atlantic Coast, Eastern National's, Mid-Atlantic Last-chance and World Masters) ... FIVE were with a very successful 60-Major team (Winter National's, Atlantic Coast, Crabtown Classic, Eastern National's and World Masters) ... The 60-Major team WON THE TRIPLE GRAND SLAM by winning the Eastern National's, the USA National Championship Game and the 30-Team 60-Major bracket ... That accomplishment earned your 60-Major team a well-deserved and automatic full-season rating increase to 60-Major+ for the 2018 Season ... Our presumption, based on the number of tournaments respectively, is that your PRIMARY team was the 60-Major team ...
• Your actual age (67 in about three weeks) is totally irrelevant in terms your personal decision, with an obvious skill set to support that decision, to play down in age ... For the next two years, so long as you continue to play in the 60+ age group, your rating experience history will reflect an R/I=7 for 60-Major+ ...

DECISION
Your current rating experience history (R/I=7) precludes you being eligible to be rostered with a 65-AAA team (R/I=4) under any circumstances ...

RATIONALE
• You seem somewhat insistent upon phrasing this issue with a simple irrelevant question along the lines of "..Why can't I play on a team in my real age group?.." ... Well, you CAN play 65's, just not 65-AAA ... Our limitations on how far down the rating index chart a player may go are based on the player's actual playing history and presumed skill set, based on his R/I, as compared to the team he seeks to join ... We always protect the lesser R/I teams ... If you're good enough, regardless of your age, to win the Triple Grand Slam with a 60-Major team, now a Major+ team, we will not allow you to compete as a 60-Major+ R/I against 65-AAA players and teams ...
• You CAN help yourself, but you'd also need some help from your 65-AAA team, to be re-affiliated with them ... YOU would have to cease playing in the 60+ age division immediately ... If you do that, you will "graduate" to the 65+ age division and take the Major+ R/I with you ... But it would be the 65-Major+ (R/I=6) and not 60-Major+ (R/I=7) ... The current 65-AAA team would also have to step up voluntarily to 65-Major (R/I=5) ... Then, and ONLY then, you would be eligible to be on their roster as one of the three allowable out-of-rating players ... It's doable, just NOT with the current R/I numbers for BOTH you and that team ...

Someone else in this thread may have indicated that success has consequences ... We applaud your success last year, and the consequences are good ones in our view ... You have a rare distinction of being on one of a very small percentage of teams that accomplished what you did ... But while we are happy for you, our association does not bend eligibility rules that are designed to protect lesser rated teams from both a competitive and safety perspective ...

Hopefully, the foregoing is and clear and rational overview of why you are not currently eligible to participate at the 65-AAA level ...

April 5
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
SSSSNNNNAAAPPP!!!!
April 5
Benji4
Men's 55
290 posts
And the moral of this story is: if you want to complain and question management you should probably call the office and discuss it, rather than EAT CROW on a message board..................
April 5
tugboat

39 posts
If your rule is that your highest rating is applied to your age. Then being consistent with your rules; a 65 year old person with a M+ Rating should be able to play 65 Major as well as 60AAA as 1 of the 3 allowed out of rating players.
April 5
Fabe
Men's 65
457 posts
Wow! Now datz an explaination! Aloha, Fabe
April 5
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
65 with an M+ rating can play
65M as one of the exceptions
60M
55AAA
50AA
April 5
SSUSA Staff

3534 posts
tugboat ... NOPE ... Please re-read the second sentence of the second Bullet•Point under RATIONALE where we explain how you can, in effect, convert a 60-M+ (R/I=7) to a 65-M+ (R/I=6) level ...

"..YOU would have to cease playing in the 60+ age division immediately.."

If you stop playing at all in the 60+ age group, you would "graduate" and take the now 65-M+ R/I with you ... BUT, if you insist on going back down to 60+, you go back to that neighborhood with the 60-M+ R/I ... So in your example, you would be prohibited from playing 60-AAA because that's two clicks down from 60-Major+ ...

SUMMARY • If you play ONLY in the 65+ age group, your options are 65-Major+ (of course) and 65-Major as one of the three out-of-rating players ... Those are, not so coincidentally, the same options you would have at the 60+ age group ... You don't get to take the 65+ R/I=6 and wander downstairs to the 60+ at any level lower than 60-Major ...

April 6
jc

13 posts
I am one of these players caught up in the playing with a younger team and bringing that major level with you. Actually had the privilege to play three age brackets last year (70,65,60) , how many get to do that in one year. Still on a 60 team that is very competitive and really like the speed of that game and skill level. Also have a 65 team that is capable of competing too. So I don’t mind the competition, however I notice at 70 it is more difficult finding that 70 level major team here in the Midwest. Been one game away from being kicked to the major plus level in two out of the last four years, but will deal with it when it happens. I say, let’s just go play and look forward to seeing everyone in Vegas!
April 6
MurrayW
Men's 65
221 posts
So does this mean that a 60-year-old who plays down on a 50 major plus team would not be eligible to play on a 60 major plus team because of a difference of 2 on the R/I scale?
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
NOPE ... Major Plus rosters are exempt from rating experience histories ... They can take anyone who is otherwise eligible as to age and residency ... Not a bad effort, though, on trying to tweak the facts to nudge the decision in a different direction! ...
April 6
MurrayW
Men's 65
221 posts
I was not trying to nudge the decision in a different direction. I was just curious when all the R/I discussion came up as I had always thought that you could play major plus at your age level regardless of your R/I.
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
MurrayW ... That's [1] true and [2] what I said ... Major+ rosters are "open" without restriction so long as the player is otherwise eligible as to age and residency ... This "issue" is all about the circumstances (NOT consequences) that arose by this player "playing young" and that team having a phenomenally successful Season ... He may play Major+ at ANY age level, but is not eligible to play 65-AAA ...
April 6
tugboat

39 posts
Players pay registration fees and each player should have one (1) rating based on their age; not have a revolving rating. It makes no sense to me that a player is 65 years and is rated as if he were 60 years old. Why have age groups?? If you are 50, 55, 60 or 65 your rating should be for your age. Seems like there is no consistency. A 60 year old with a M+ rating is not the same as a 65 year old with a M+ rating and should not have the same restrictions. This seems to defy logic or is something else going on since you have previously made a reference to fairness. Maybe this needs to be reviewed.
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
tugboat ... There is complete consistency on this issue as it relates to you, and presumably it couldn't be more clearly or concisely explained ... Your rating experience history is NOT based on any theory that you are younger than 65 ... You have only ONE effective rating index number, and it's the highest R/I based on the actual performance rating index history of the team(s) you choose to play with ... But even your new theory is flawed ... If you want to be considered 65+, that's fine with us! ... As a 65-Major+ R/I player, you are still not eligible for joining a 65-AAA team ... Our decision stands ...

If you have an interest in advocating changes in the rules or policies, please plan on attending the National Rules Committee sessions at this year's Annual Convention in late November in Las Vegas ... Alternatively, you may also make your case by submitting identifiable written correspondence by regular or email for possible Committee Agenda inclusion ... The factual matter is concluded, and so am I on it (starting to get a headache from beating my head against the wall!) ... How far you want to chase the theoretical aspect is up to you ... Good luck! ...

April 6
tugboat

39 posts
You made your point about 65 AAA; Y\however you said I cannot be 1 of the 3 on 60 AAA and you have not explained that.
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
Yes I have! ... Here's the reprint ... underline emphasis added ...

"..If you stop playing at all in the 60+ age group, you would "graduate" and take the now 65-M+ R/I with you ... BUT, if you insist on going back down to 60+, you go back to that neighborhood with the 60-M+ R/I ... So in your example, you would be prohibited from playing 60-AAA because that's two clicks down from 60-Major+ ..."

April 6
tugboat

39 posts
You are in charge and can drop the conversation, but according to your Senior Softball Rating Index Chart, A 65 M+ player can play 60 AAA as 1 of the 3 out-of-rating players. Maybe your headache is not allowing you to see what is being asked and what you are saying. Hope you feel better!
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
Hopefully final comment from here ... You "won" your upgraded 60-Major+ tag in the 60's, and it converts to a 65-Major+ ONLY if you no longer participate at the 60+ age level (that was clearly explained above, too) ... IF you go back to that 60's neighborhood during the next two seasons, and still want to play 60's, the 60-Major+ R/I is reinstated for as long as you do so ... You're either a 65+ player ONLY, or you're not ... We do not allow, in effect, a player that is a 60-Major+ R/I to ignore that fact for convenience because he's actually eligible for 65+ ... You were skilled enough last Season to achieve the ultimate performance award our association confers, the Triple Grand Slam ... If you "stay" in the 60's, you'll continue to be treated as one who carries a 60-Major+ R/I ... You are not the first player to find himself similarly situated, and you won't be the last ... But we've been through this enough times to have developed, and applied, a common standard to address protecting the lesser skill rated divisions ...

April 6
tugboat

39 posts
NO, you won!!!! I am blessed to be one player with dual ratings... 65 M+ rating as well as a 60 M+ plus rating. My age doesn't change but my rating revolves around where I play.

Any other 65 year old M+ player is allowed to play 60 AAA. They have one rating based on their age and the skill level SSUSA assigns them; not for what team they played for... Unfortunately this is not the west coast where players have a lot of teams to choose from. I have gotten a headache trying to get you to see the player unfairness you are exhibiting.
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
tugboat ... You have exactly ONE R/I number in our system ... It's R/I=7 for 60-Major+ ... YOU can make that shrink by one to R/I=6 for 65-Major+ IF you limit your play to 65+ age division ... Totally YOUR call ... Good luck! ...
April 6
tugboat

39 posts
No problem, your organization and you can make rules on the fly. You, your rule and everyone else knows that R/I doesn’t and is determined by your age and highest level played. Mine should be 6. It does not change because a player elects to play at a lower age. A player’s personal index has nothing to do with the success of a team. The rules support it, anything else is a personal bias or an invented rule. The 60 M+ team is 7. Read your rules.
April 6
titanhd
Men's 60
641 posts
tugboat. This is not my fight but, As explained if you move 65 age group you would have to play Major+ or Major. No matter that you are Playing 65. Your player rating however is still 60 Major+ . If you play 60 again you will have to play Major or Plus.You could not play AAA.
You are correct in that a 65M+ rated player would be allowed to play 60AAA as one of the 3 out of rating players on a team but, you are not 65M+ rated.
Your Player rating is 60M+ (No matter your age). and the subsequent rule as Dave explained would apply.Simpler put and hypothetically speaking you could be 70 years Old and still have a 60M+ rating.It wouldn't change if you decided to play on a 70 team.You would still be rated 60M+ and be subjected to the same set of rules as applied.

Hope this helps.
April 6
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
You were doing so well until this post, but you've got everything "bass-ackwards"! ... We're reasonable sure that "on the fly" doesn't encompass about 10 years of this analytical approach, which is how long it's been in place ... Your personal R/I is absolutely determined by the highest R/I of the team(s) you played with, after the first one (which is a freebie, but you played 5 times for the 60-Major last Season) ... A player's R/I has everything to do with the performance of the team, because we don't rate players, we just track the rating level(s) of the team(s) they play with at the times they do so ... Yours CAN be a six, but only if you limit your roster presence to 65+ teams ...

tugboat ... You seem to be a "..gotta have the last word.." kinda guy ... So we're going to let that happen, by asking you a simple question in the hopes of not wasting any more internet bandwidth on this ... Looking forward to your reply! ... This ought to be good ...

What do you think your potential future 65-AAA opponents would want us to do when they learn (right now) that ...

YOU are on the active roster submitted by your 60-Major+ team for the Tidewater Classic starting in two weeks?



We'll give you the last word!

April 6
tugboat

39 posts
I long ago conceded to you about playing 65AAA so that discussion is over on my end. I am not playing with said team, thus I should not be on anyone’s active 60 M+ roster.

I conceded to be rated as a 65 M+. I should have the same freedom and choices that go along with anyone else that is rated as a 65 M+. I am not requesting anything that does not go along with my age and rating.
April 6
tugboat

39 posts
Thanks for the info. I understand loud and clear. All of the other 65 M+ players can play 60 AAA but for whatever reason I am not allowed. That logic exscapes me, but it is your organization.
April 6
OMD

38 posts
What's so hard to understand?
A 60M+ player can not play with a 60AAA - and your rated as a 60M+ player even though you are 65.
Success usually comes at a price!
April 6
Omar Khayyam

1357 posts
tugboat must be one of the few successful players who can turn it on in a tournament. He sees himself as an "average" "AAA Player", yet a world-beater 60-year-old Major team has him playing in five or six tournaments, including the World Championship which they win! I would love to have a teammate who could soar above his average playing to contribute to a top-class team.
April 7
kjones
Men's 50
15 posts
It seems Tugboat keeps referring to himself as a 65 M+ player when in fact he is a 60 M+ player. If he could understand that I think the conversation might be over.
April 7
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4355 posts
Omar Khayyam ... You have only half an idea how fortunate the 65-AAA team was to have had him on the roster with that skill set ... He has a teammate (who will turn 66 in less than a month) on both teams with the exact same player experience history: Played SIX events with the former 60-Major, now 60-Major+ team, while also playing multiple events with the 65's team ... Lastly, here's why the focus of the debate shifted late in the game to a 60-AAA team: The 60-AAA and 65-AAA teams he references, without naming, are two "franchises" that have [1] the same team name (but for the age), [2] manager-of-record; and [3] sponsor ... [As I get older, I believe less and less in coincidence! ...]

April 7
tugboat

39 posts
Skill set?? Seems you are making that judgement based on the success of one of the teams they played on rather than the players ability. Both players were average players at the 65AAA level. Tons of players at the 65 level with better skill sets; yet they are not rated as if they were 60 years old.

Again, no problem, I understand being in charge allows one to justify decisions however they choose.
April 7
tugboat

39 posts
Thank God that Social Security doesn’t use your rules; they still treat me as being 65!
April 8
r4pitch

93 posts
Tug boat seems like you got that very bad disease SANDBAGER
April 8
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
I am slightly intrigued...TB...reveal your name and team and then us unwashed masses can either see you play or play against you. If I feel/believe/think you are an average AAA player, I will be glad to write to SSUSA on your behalf on just how average you are. Now on the other hand if you are a stud muffin then I might even want to get TShirts printed up to sell...Stud here Dud there..insert name here...Seriously though...be blessed in your abilities and humble in your walk/talk..It can all go away in a second....

Mike Adair
April 8
r4pitch

93 posts
Enjoy TB that your TEAM won a great tournament ..Part of winning is you move up and try Your talents at the next level..If you were a runner and that is it then maybe you got a right to wine ..But if you started or came of the bench congrats your skill helped your TEAM win...Good luck at major + ....
April 8
pizzaboy

79 posts
Tugboat played on a very good team that won a Major because they have some very good players.But if Tugboat was this great Major+ player why did his 65 aaa team not win a 65AAA tournament?You'd think they would of cleaned up in 65 aaa just because of Tugboat.I'm baffled that a 60m+ player isn't classified as a 65m+ player some how this just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
April 8
tugboat

39 posts
Great enough to bat last and have someone run for me on the 60 team. Great enough to bat in the middle of the 65 lineup. Definitely Major+ qualifications in SSUSA eyes 😵🤫
April 8
Omar Khayyam

1357 posts
On our Las Vegas world winning team, our most powerful hitter (and the only one who hit home runs over the fence) batted in the middle of our lineup. He is a great slugger but in the middle of the pack as far as batting average goes. Our manager values men frequently getting on base because we have so few power hitters. And yes, he got moved up with the rest of us for winning in Vegas. Don't think he ever played down an age group.
April 8
pizzaboy

79 posts
Dave why did you mention that the 65 and 60 teams that Tugboat wanted to play for were franchise teams with the same name.They also had the same manager and sponsor.Did this manager(sponsor) do something in the past to get on the bad side of ssusa and you felt obligated to throw this out there?As I get older,I believe less and less is coincidence!
April 8
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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