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Online now: 2 members: Z Man, scottflodin; 26 anonymousDiscussion: Batting Box rule change Left handed player called out correctly, entirely within the box
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| March 23 Montanapnc 10 posts | When the new rule was explained, at SG UT, I wondered why in the world there was a need for the front of the box, if the front of the plate, now constituted the outer limits of a player being called out. I asked two umpires and neither could give me what I considered to be a reasonable version of why this rule exists, given the pitcher is allowed to move 6 feet at his leisure. Presumably a pitcher can do this for his safety. So he gets six feet. Pitchers have continued to master the art of throwing flat and short. High and deep. Front and back and even some with a curve that I still don't understand how is accomplished. What I don't get is the purpose of a rule that doesn't address safety for the pitcher or provide a safe zone for a batter, in the batter's box. This is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. I am a spray hitter with power,in a 70s major playoff game. I hit one out of the park in a previous game and painted both lines during the tournament. In the sixth inning with two outs, in a tight tight game, I was pitched short and outside. I walked from the back of the box, dropped my back foot and stepped towards third base, with both feet and I state this emphatically, both feet entirely in the batters box and hit a line drive over third base ... a stand up double ... and was called out on a dead ball out. I basically lined up my body in the batters box, to make sure that I kept the ball in the white lines. The third baseman wasn't marginally protected or harmed by my body stance. The pitcher was able to give himself a six foot margin. I was six inches in front of the plate, with both foot prints inside the batters box and the front foot still four inches inside the box. I get rules are rules and my understanding of this rule was it was to protect pitchers and batters from running up on a pitch outside the box. The scuttlebutt is that it was designed to protect umpires from being challenged on out of the box calls. It's slow pitch and underhand. If the batters box is now defined by the front of the mat, then get rid of the front of the box. Those lines are useless and of no help to a batter. By the umpires own admission, I was entirely in the box and neither foot was anywhere near leaving it. Yet I was called out. Help me here. How has this change helped softball? Pitchers I play against move back as soon as they let it go or they are on the defensive. Fielders are already playing at depth, as they feel comfortable given a batter's relative power and radius. I have played this game for nearly 50 years and I have yet to set a more stupid rule and enforcement. The batters box is already fairly redundant...If this is where the game wants to go, then get rid of front of the box entirely. Just chalk the front of the plate and if your back foot isn't behind it.. you are out. Good pitchers can protect themselves by backing up and throwing something other than flat... After days of thinking, I just don't see where this rule helps our game. |
| March 23 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | You know the best part about your long and winding road/comment. You know the rule and the purpose behind it. SSUSA has defined the reasoning behind the change well. Boxes are usually not uniform, but the plate it. If your back foot is beyond plate. Out. Just about as simple as it can get. 53 years of playing softball. Mike Adair |
| March 23 Montanapnc 10 posts | Mike I get the rule. But in my world, the box was always the same dimension. They gave the pitcher the right to move six feet, wear equipment but the guys who fought the rule? Pitchers. Its an easy rule. Just not a good one given the fact a batter is supposed to watch the ball and a pitcher has time and a starting point to soften the blow. I can adjust to the rule... but one of them will endanger a pitcher because both you and I know how to hit line drives at their feet. If I observe the rule, I will keep my back foot back. Does that help the pitcher? What I will do is align myself more to the center of the field. You know who is going to suffer? Pitchers. Pitchers, in my world, fought against the halo rule etc. If I stay in the box, and they get six feet, then this is a poor rule. I play about 40 games a year and this rule seems like more verbage to a rule that is more easily defined by the halo rule. Up the middle... you're out. |
| March 23 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | Montanapnc ... As the Tournament Director at the event you mentioned, I can state with certainty that our umpires did an excellent job describing and enforcing the new rule ... I covered it with them EVERY morning at the umpires' meeting before play commenced ... The purpose of the rule change was three-fold, and we can describe it in about 75 words: ... It was [1] to conform the SSUSA rule to what is common in many/most other adult slow-pitch associations, [2] to simply define a very understandable concept of keeping the back foot down as an anchor against pitcher encroachment, and use the front edge of the plate, a common element in ALL ballfields, as the forward limit ... Batters' boxes ARE different from facility to facility, but the front edge of the plate is in the same place everywhere ... Good luck as you adapt to change ... |
| March 23 Montanapnc 10 posts | Hi Dave, Rules are rules and I get ease of enforcement. Over the years, the halo rule to the head gear rule to the entire combat rule was to protect older pitchers with slower reactions. Its also easy to interpret. I get that two areas of the game are how to do it and how to all infractions. My point is that it doesn't protect the pitcher, from the time honored idea of a tape measure and a standard batters box. Especially for the pitcher, who gets six feet already and who by and large doesn't use it. He used to be tethered to the mound. If you want the same effect, then remove the front of the box. Its a crappy rule unless you mark it like you are now visualizing it. The rule was correctly enforced with me, on a box I have for years learned to hit within. Erase the front line of the box if this is the way you want to go. You don't need it. If you want to chalk something,chalk the front line of the plate. End of story. |
| March 23 Montanapnc 10 posts | I am saying that a player, hitting a ball to the off field, is less likely to be injurious, than a ball pitched inside to Mike Adair, short. A pitcher who pitches a ball to Mike, outside and low and short, has lots of warning that it may be coming out hot up the middle. I don't mind rule changes. I don't think it was misapplied. I think its a bad rule that could be easily better directed or applied with a halo rule or a more honestly chalked box. In fact, I don't think you need a box, any more than you need a catcher standing close to the plate any longer. The mat has simplified the game. The box may be entirely unnecessary. |
| March 23 Montanapnc 10 posts | Its okay that pitchers have some advantages. I will just foul them off or hit another place which may end up being hard to catch. |
| March 24 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | The batter’s box is one of those things that I call heart rules. People get very emotional. Rather than add to that, why does everyone think that the pitcher’s “alley” is 6’ in their statements above? I know that has been 10’ for a very long time. If you look at the back of the rulebook, you can see the field dimensions. |
| March 24 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | This is my 56th year playing softball. I have to agree with Montanapnc. I would be furious if I did the same thing and was called out for being totally IN the batters box.I have watched both right handed and left handed hitters do exactly what Montana did-shift LEGALLY in the box to go to the opposite field. I do it. As I see it, you have now changed the rule to accommodate the guys that run up in the box at the expense of the hitters that have worked for all of their careers to do it legally. I disagreed with it's adoption and that won't change. I also think you are going to see this happen more and more.Thanks for the forum for this, Dave. |
| March 24 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | It is very simple, rules are for the majority of events and situations. The back foot and plate handle 99.9% of out of the front of the box issues. You can't legislate or dictate every instance or circumstance. Montanapnc obviously an exceptional hit, but in this instance an illegal one. Webbie with the size of your ego, the box is never big enough. Luv Ya |
| March 24 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | I didn't advocate any change of box size. Where did you get that? |
| March 24 Enviro-Vac Men's 65 489 posts | The 3’ X 7” batter’s box dimensions used to be adequate before the mat covered home plate. Prior to the use of the mat a pitched ball that hit the plate was a ball not a strike. This allowed the batter to position themselves further back. By having the mat cover home plate, the batter’s box has effectively been shortened by 17” - the length of home plate. |
| March 25 txnighttrain 120 posts | Batter Boxes tend to disappear during a game. I have seen players outside a senior structered box and the umpire refuse to call it. At least with the back foot rule the box has some real meaning. USSSA went to this rule 3 years ago and the players have adjusted just fine. |
| March 27 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | I am against this rule, it fixes nothing and ruins much. My team had momentum killed by this rule and will make it my mission to take my two teams and sponsor money to another association if I continue to have the same experience. I bet this rule was created in a league where the plate was not a strike so you had a little room to protect the front of the strike zone, in a league where the plate is a strike and the low, sometimes not-called illegal pitches, this rule takes the bat out of the batters hands and changes the game and experience. It was not well thought out. |
| March 27 garyheifner 649 posts | Sorry if I sound dumb. Haven't played a tournament yet in 2024. I stand with my back foot about 6 inches behind the front of the plate. Are U guys saying that if my front leg kick forward takes me past the front of the plate, I am now out?? |
| March 27 nickname36 94 posts | "EXACTLY" Why are we always trying to change the game its just fine the way it is. Why did you have change the batters box it worked just fine for a lot of decades. Then some people wanna change the commute line what's wrong with it the way it is? The only change I agree with is the orange bag at first base. We didn't really need it until guys didn't know how to run up the line and touch 1st base, there was always guys that wanted to step on your ankle when your foot was clearly on the inside of the base and they had all of the base to touch. |
| March 27 nickname36 94 posts | spelling error "COMMITMENT" not "COMMUTE" |
| March 28 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | If the plate is not a strike then this rule works fine, with the plate a strike the back foot limit and front of the plate are too close to each other, impossible to protect and stay behind the front of the plate. |
| March 28 garyheifner 649 posts | I am an outfielder I pitch when needed. Will tell U I am going to practice a lot pitching to the front of the mat in other words short. Most of the time when U swing at a pitch knee high, it will be a grounder to 3rd or SS. I still don't understand the need for a batters box. Stand where U want. By our rules U have to defend the MAT. All U need is a line 18 inches in front of the plate that U can't cross. A lot of hitters are going to have to make big adjustments. The guys who take big strides with the lead leg are in trouble. They are going to have to move back and the short pitch with 2 strikes are going to eat them up. |
| March 28 k man Men's 65 326 posts | gary, why would you reduce the distance from the front of the plate from 39+ inches to 18 inches. Makes no sense and as you suggest, it would move the batter back and the short outside pitch would be a serious disadvantage. As it is I think more batters who had a situation like montana had in the original post, would be more likely to shoot the middle with that pitch so as to not shift the trail foot in front of the plate. By the way, our local league introduced this rule a couple of years ago and due to the different size boxes at some of our parks, we eliminated the front edge of the box being a fault, only if the back foot is in front of the plate. |
| March 28 garyheifner 649 posts | What I am saying is if I have 2 strikes on the batter if U go short front edge from what I have been told he cant shuffle his feet up in the box to reach the short pitch. Why not make him reach. |
| March 28 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | SoftballFreak has it right. I got called out for the first time I can remember, on a short (read flat) pitch not called. Most of the pitchers in St. George 60 M were throwing short. When they are 60' back and hitting the front of the plate it's very difficult to keep that back foot in. I usually can flare it to right, but now I'll have to adapt and guess where it's going? Yep, middle. Staff, this new rule might work for utrip, but it doesn't work for us. I'll apologize now, but I probably won't latter. |
| March 28 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Gary, yes the astute pitcher will pitch short and outside for a difficult to hit ball but Montana and others have stated those who went oppo in the past and easily stayed in the box now have to worry that their trail foot is in front of the line and risk being called out. So they are much more likely to take it up the middle which is what the rule was trying to avoid. |
| April 20 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | Seems like this rule is going to stay for now despite the fact that every team I talked to agreed it was a horrible rule and not well thought out. It fixes nothing and ruins a lot. I still think this rule originated in a league where the plate was not a strike giving the batter a buffer between the front of the strike zone and where his foot can end up. Been playing seniors for 5+ years and still have not seen a batter walk the box and blow up the pitcher. Who cares about the batters box? There is a mat that must be protected, the batter needs to be near it to hit the ball. |
| April 21 NEW TEAM 30 posts | PLAYED THIS WEEKEND IN GEM CITY NO BATTERS BOX IN ANY GAME ( 6 games )it WAS UP TO THE UMPIRE , LAST GAME WAS CALLED TWICE BEFORE THAT NOT ONE TIME , I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION ITS UP TO THE UMPIRE |
| April 22 B.J. 1107 posts | NEW TEAM.. of course it's up to the umpire.. but let me explain to you that this is not an easy call.. the mechanics of an umpire are to let the batter get set in the batters box and check to make sure that he's in a legal batting position before letting the pitcher make a pitch then once the pitcher releases the pitch he has to follow the heighth of the pitch and judge whether or not it is a legal pitch and then when the batter is swinging watch the bat making contact with the ball and then follow the flight of the ball to where the ball was hit and in between the batter hitting the ball and watching the flight of the ball off the bat he has to try to look down and see the batters feet who is already moving out of the batters box after hitting the ball .. |
| April 22 mark3a 7 posts | Keep your back foot behind the front of the plate. |
| April 22 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | ▲ Perfect answer in 10 words ▲ |
| April 22 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Exactly. |
| April 23 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | ^These 3 answers do not work for me and my team^ Our umpire was confused though, he called batters out for where the foot ended up, not where the foot was when the ball was struck. Momentum takes you forward and there was a trail in the dirt showing that momentum. No one walked the box and shot the pitcher. This rule sucks and because of all the things the umpire has to keep on eye on in that moment, there's no way to truly get this right. A bunch of old men making rules to fix things that aren't broken. |
| April 23 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | Well, you've got the better part of a full season to adapt, since the SSUSA considers rules amendments only one time per year ... Here's the "deal" ... The Rules Committee does NOT take comments made on this forum into account when considering a change in policy, procedure or rules ... We expect interested parties to either [1] attend the annual meetings in person to be heard OR [2] submit identifiable written correspondence (by email to Info@seniorsoftball.com with "Rules Committee" in the Memo Line or by snail-mail) ... You should plan now to attend the meetings if at all possible and present your arguments for changes ... We're very visitor-friendly! ... Please note that ALL the arguments and suggestions made here over the year on this forum are specifically EXCLUDED from potential Meeting Agenda inclusion ... This is due to the generally unregulated and anonymous (like yourself here) nature of the forum, especially when many of those suggestions contradict each other ... We hope to hear from you by proper channels or, even better, see you in early December ... |
| April 23 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | We spent the whole weekend in Dayton OH with an umpire who refused to call anyone out for being in front of the plate. One team we played twice had 4 batters in a row both games STARTING with both feet in front of the plate before the pitch was even thrown. He argued with me that there are no batters boxes in slow pitch softball and said the rules don't exist. |
| April 23 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | JohnO28 ... That sounds a lot like a renegade umpire in play hiding out from the T.D. ... The Director at Dayton is one of our better/stronger ones nationally ... It would be a significant surprise if he was encouraging blatant disregard of the rule ... He was present and a strong contributor at the National Rules Committee meetings where the rule was adopted ... |
| April 23 JohnO28 Men's 50 107 posts | Dave, wasn't saying Mike allowed it and he didn't condone it. I spoke with Mike about it and he said he was unaware. Just unfortunate that umpires aren't all following the same rules and pretty much no way to get him to do it either. It's a judgement call at best and you can't force and umpire to make the right call if he's opposed to it so it wasn't something I was going to Mike about during the tournament. He was made aware, but this was also the same umpire that said with 1 out and men on 1st and 2B and a pop up to the 2B who is one step into the grass with both feet isn't an infield fly either because it wasn't in the IF. Same umpire with a runner on 1B a ground ball hit to 2B he flips to SS who throws and hits the runner from 1B who not only failed to peel off when he was thrown out but raised his arms and ran like an airplane towards 2B in the arm and it rolled back to me at catcher and the ump didn't the batter out for runner interference. When asked he said he coudln't tell if it hit the runner or not as the runner was walking back to the 1B dugout complaining how hard our SS threw the ball. Some Umps just aren't good. |
| April 24 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | "..wasn't saying Mike allowed it and he didn't condone it.. ... In re-reading my post, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, either ... Mike's a really good Director ... But bad umpiring affects all levels of play, up to and including MLB ... Take a look at the hilarious video of the very first pitch of last Saturday's Orioles-Royals game. Ryan Blakney blew an obvious strike call that was so bad, here was the broadcast call: "Fastball is right down the middle for ball one. ... What?! ... My goodness! Not on pitch one! ... What part of that pitch is not a strike?" ... |
| April 24 DieselDan Men's 75 602 posts | Probably his union is protecting his butt, but when he's no longer a MLB umpire, let's hope he doesn't show up working senior softball. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvWtjHOD_Do |
| April 24 titanhd Men's 60 639 posts | Is this batters Box rule only an SSUSA rule or does it apply to all other associations as well? |
| April 24 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | titanhd ... I can't speak with certainty to ..all other associations as well..", but I can state that we borrowed this one directly from the USSSA rule: For the sake of consistency across all venues where SSUSA plays, the committee adopted, generally, the USSSA Rule 1, section 5, as follows: “..The batter must take an initial position with his back foot no further forward than a line defining the front edge of home plate. The batter will be called out if he hits the ball when the back foot is completely further forward than the line defining the front edge of home plate. NOTE: All other illegally batted ball infractions regarding the side and rear lines of the batter’s box, along with stepping on home plate, remain in effect..” • PASSED: 12-0-0 |
| April 24 Rangview85 18 posts | Can a player stand anywhere in the box (both feet in front of the mat for example) if he doesn't swing at the incoming pitch? Some players like to do that if the count is 3-1 and are obviously taking the next pitch. Thanks in advance |
| April 24 B.J. 1107 posts | Rangeview.. I'm not 100% certain with the rule change but with the old rule an umpire could not allow the pitcher to pitch unless the batter was legally in the batters box.. so I would "assume" that if a batter set up illegally in front of the strike mat that the umpire would have to correct him before a pitch is allowed |
| April 25 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | Rangeview85 ... The "batter is out penalty" is predicated on the ball actually being batted while the batter is in a prohibited position ... If the pitch is being "taken", there is no violation ... But the Rulebook does describe where the batter must be before the start of the pitch, and B.J. accurately states the process of stopping the pitcher if the batter is not compliant ... __________ §7.3 • BATTING POSITION A. The batter must have at least some portion of both feet on or inside the lines of the batter's box at the start of the pitch. A batter who steps out of the batter’s box at any time during the pitch and then hits the ball, fair or foul, shall be called out. Steps out means touching the ground completely outside of the lines of the batter’s box. |
| April 26 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | When and where does the rules committee meeting take place? |
| April 26 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | Looking here at the USSSA Conference rules we see this rule - In USSSA, a batter's back foot must be no further forward than the front edge of home plate when they take their initial position. If the batter hits the ball with their back foot past the front edge of home plate, they are called out. The batter is also out if their foot lands on home plate or in front of the plate while making contact with the ball. Of course in regular USSSA the plate is not a strike which creates a buffer between the front of the strike zone and where your feet can be. You guys didn't consider this when you implemented this rule in SSUSA, bad planning. If I can make that meeting I will be there, hopefully somewhere on the west coast. |
| April 26 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | The National Rules Committee meets for several days at the ISA/SSUSA joint Annual Convention ... It's generally the week after Thanksgiving and alternates between the East Coast (odd years) and the Western U.S. (even years) ... This year is a "Western" year, and nothing official yet, but it may be in Tucson ... There's a CONVENTION link on the MENU BAR of all website pages ... It hasn't been updated yet for 2024, but last year's agenda is there, and it doesn't change much from year to year ... |
| April 26 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | This doesn't feel like a real way to lobby to change a rule, travel a quarter way across the country at my own expense taking time off to maybe get a few words in about a poorly thought out and implemented rule? In my opinion the batters box is worthless because there is no consistency from field to field. All that matters is the mat, protect it. Maybe make new mats with a 12 inch white part on the front that will be called a ball then make sure the batter stays behind that? Make walking the box and shooting the pitcher a dead-ball out, it will be easy to identify when it's happening. Or make walking the box illegal, also easy to see and make a call. You adopted a rule from an association that doesn't call the plate a strike, it's apples to oranges, this is a huge flaw in this new rule and as I mentioned above, that 2 strike flat pitch that is not called illegal (happens all the time) is an unfair advantage. And you guys can't find umps so this will continue to be the case as you throw unexperienced guys out there. I see it on social media, you don't have the guys you need and are asking for umpires for upcoming tournaments. I umpired for many years, I would ignore this rule and not call it because it's bad. |
| April 26 LC7 Men's 55 14 posts | I remember the controversy last season when batters were called out for having their front foot outside of the front of the batter's box. The problem came from venues having shorter batter's boxes. Apparently SSUSA adopted the brand new U-trip rule about back foot and home plate. I'm curious whether SSUSA rule 1.5 - Batter's Box has also been changed, since it conflicts with the new rule. It seems to me they could have compromised and made a better rule: "A batter must Either have both feet within the batter's box Or their back foot behind the front of the mat when they hit the ball." This adjustment would serve the original purpose of keeping batters from encroaching toward the pitcher, and also allow a batter to use the entire legal sized batter's box without being called out. |
| April 26 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | 3_SF ... Well, you've got about seven months or so until the next Rules Committee Sessions to put together something for our consideration or for you to plan to appear ... As we mentioned above, anonymous posts like these on an open Message Board isn't the methodology that's going to result in getting on the Official Agenda or result in any change ... Good luck! |
| April 26 3_SoftballFreak 21 posts | This ain't anonymous, you can see every person who posts here since we have to register to post. |
| April 26 LC7 Men's 55 14 posts | I will be sending an email about modifying this rule, but how are these posts anonymous? SSUSA has the profile info for every user, and you have to be logged in with your username to be able to comment. |
| April 26 DaveDowell Men's 70 4321 posts | The email addresses used to get initial posting privileges here are not accessible to anyone other than the independent webmaster (Scott Flodin) ... Many of them are "throwaway" addresses according to Scott ... If you don't put your name in your own visible profile, your username is categorized as anonymous ... We have no official indication who you might be, nor is it a matter of concern in the Free Speech context ... Identifiable email or snail-mail correspondence or personal appearance are the acceptable ways to communicate with the National Rules Committee in an effort to get on the Official Agenda ... Message Board posts are specifically excluded ... We'd love to hear from you through the appropriate channels ... |
| April 26 nickname36 94 posts | "EXACTLY" Just go back to the way it was and be done with it. If I was umpiring I'd call the batters box the it way is was from day one and if your a pitcher your probably gonna get blown up once or twice. I was blown up a few times when I pitched(13 yrs) that's why I don't pitch any more, there are 9 other positions I can play. |
