https://www.vspdirect.com/softball/welcome?utm_source=softball&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=partners

 
SIGN IN:   Password      »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 1 member: Flooring; 10 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Flip-Flop Rule

Posted Discussion
March 1
Beasley
Men's 50
173 posts
I thought that since I mentioned this in a previous post, I'd expand on why I disagree with this rule.

We recently had this rule imposed on us at the Tournament of Champions. We were the only 50+ Major+ team so we played our bracket games against two 40+ Major teams that are very good.

We're visitors and headed to the bottom of the 6th inning leading by 14 runs (I believe that's what it was). Considering the level of play and this this is a 40+ team, that wasn't a whole lot of runs (IMO). The umpire, rightfully so, announces that if the 40+ doesn't score at least 4 runs then the flip-flop rule comes into play and they'll (the 40+ team) will become the visitors and bat in the top of the 7th inning.

As manager, I went to the umpire and asked if it was set in stone or whether we had a choice. I explained that we were playing a team that's 10 years our junior and that if they got to 10 runs, they would head into the open inning with an excellent opportunity flip the momentum and leave us trying to catch them in the bottom of the inning. The umpire called the field director over and we discussed the rule. There wasn't yelling and screaming but I wasn't real happy. I also knew the field director wasn't going to cave in so I walked away after telling him I thought it was a bulls#$5 rule.

The 40+ team scored 3 runs in the bottom of the 6th, flipped to Visitors and we fortunately got them out without any more runs. So, we came ahead in this one.

So I'm interested to see what others have experienced with regards to the flip-flop rule.

Thanks for allowing me to rant.
March 1
titanhd
Men's 60
641 posts
When you flip -flop it is the open inning AND last inning. If you were up by fourteen and they got only 10 the game is over.
March 1
k man
Men's 65
330 posts
Beasley, other than depriving your team an at bat and pouring it on, your team handled the situation as one would hope.

I would imagine a very small amount of teams that flip flop come from behind after having been down by the 10+ run deficit. But my team did experience such a situation at the Tidewater tournament last April. We were the home team and were getting our butts kicked. We were down I think it was 13 runs going into the bottom of the 6th. We scored 3 runs in the bottom of the 6th. So they did the flip flop. We were now the visitors in the top of the 7th and went on to score 13 or 14 runs in the top of the 7th. The other team (which happens to be our sister team) scored 1 or none in the bottom of the 7th. We went on to win the tourney earning our position for the recent TOC.

And how did our 13 run open inning come to an end?
Turns out that a runner asked for a courtesy runner and with all the runs scored and base runners, turned out that the courtesy runner had previously run for somebody earlier in that inning and the other team (our sister team) was familiar with our team so they challenged that runner who was called out for running twice in the inning thus ending our half of the inning.
March 3
Turbo 34
Men's 50
47 posts
The one aspect of flip flop rules and using runs scored and allowed during round robin to decide seeding for bracket play that I don't like, is the fact that number of at bats during games does not figure into the equation. If my team wins two games by a total of two runs and never bats in the open inning I think the score going INTO the open inning should be used for seeding purposes. If we are up 30-19 going into the open inning and win 30-29, that score is not indicative of the actual game. If some other team with the same record has batted in the open inning wins 30-28 they the higher seed even though they got an extra at bat.
March 3
SSUSA Staff

3550 posts
REPRINT of our post on topic from January 17th ...
__________

Here's the Tie-Breaker order of application ...

1. Record (W-L)
2. Head to head result in full round robin
3. Aggregate runs allowed in all games
4. Net run differential in all games
5. Coin toss

We only use run differential as the "last resort" before a coin toss ... If you win a flip-flop game, you still had to stop your opponent in seven offensive ½-inning at-bat situations, which is a higher priority tie-breaker ... A principal motivation for the flip-flop rule is to prevent the more than occasional occurrence of unsportsmanlike conduct by a visiting team, with the game already well in hand, saying: "Hey, if we put up a couple of touchdowns in the open, we'll help our seeding!!!" ... Nope! ... Defense is rewarded over offense by SSUSA ... Hope this helps ...

March 3
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3233 posts
I'm trying to understand this, the losing team will benefit in the runs allowed category because the winning team won't be scoring.
By the way Dave, the Record (W-L) is the "last resort" before Head to head result in full round robin, Aggregate runs allowed in all games, Net run differential in all games and Coin toss! ;)
March 3
SSUSA Staff

3550 posts
Bruce ... Winning is ALWAYS better for seeding than losing, which is why "W-L" is the top priority and is the first criteria considered ... The above priority order (#1 thru #5) is the order by which they are applied ... The only criteria applied after "run differential" is coin toss ... The tie-breaker application rewards in order: wins, H2H result where applicable, wins with good defense and run differential prior to the random coin toss ... The sportsmanship issue for placing defense over offense for seeding is more prevalent than many would surmise, and there is the ancillary benefit of tournament time management by limiting huge open innings by teams already well in hand in the specific game ...

To lend some perspective, in Las Vegas last year, the 59-team 50-AAA resorted to "run differential" in only two instances (involving two pairs of 0-2 teams), and there were probably less than five total instances in the entire 564-team tournament ...

March 3
HAT MAN
Men's 50
230 posts
poor beasley

i feel for you man, you had to play proven tournament champions that were 10 years younger and we up 14 runs. Your team got screwed.

Come on man you played younger healthier proven top teams and killed them and your complaining about a flip flop rule. SMH
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Email: info@SeniorSoftball.com
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12
Sacramento, CA 95827
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts international softball tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners