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Discussion: Re-Rated without playing a tournament

Posted Discussion
May 20, 2016
The Tone
5 posts
Re-Rated without playing a tournament
Alright, Here we go again. Not that it is going to make a difference, but I have to vent here. I played for Sports Center 50AAA in 2011, we won the worlds in Phoenix, AZ. We then got bumped to Major in 2012. After playing in a few tournaments throughout the year and not doing that well, we went to the Major worlds in Vegas and went 2-0 in pool play and was seeded #1. We went on to win 4 games and finish 4th. Unfortunately we got bumped to Major Plus in 2013, which by no means were we a Plus team.
There were only a couple of 50 Major Plus teams in the East, Brysons & Mid Atlantic. We played them a few times and never beat them, but went on to Vegas that year to the 50 Major Plus Worlds and went 0-4. In 2014 we played a couple of tournies and didn't do that well, so decided not to waste $20,000+ to go get our asses kicked again. In 2015 we split up and played on different 55 Major teams, until this year we diced to put our team back together as a 55 Major Team.
We registered SSUSA, SPA, & ISSA as a 55 Major Team. We played in 1 SPA tournament in Maryland and went to the finals with High St Bucs before it was cancelled because of rain. I look on the SSUSA website and see we are moved to 55 Major Plus.
Now anyone that has played against us as Sports Center or Team Tone knows that we are by no means a Major Plus Team.
I had to cancel my rooms for Vegas that I had already booked for the 55 Major Worlds and unfortunately we will not be playing any SSUSA.
May 20, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3185 posts
The Tone ... Your post makes no mention of having submitted a Rating Appeal, but your timing appears to be fairly good, with the semi-annual rating process coming up in June ... The newly revised Rating Appeal Forms are available here from the FORMS page ...

However, and the interest of full disclosure, the following factors are relevant for why your "new team" is currently rated 55-Major Plus:

You registered a "new team" with SSUSA in March and requested a 55-Major rating (Rating Index = 7) ... We asked for, and you provided, your proposed Master Roster to determine if it supported your requested rating;
We reviewed all individual player histories on the roster you submitted ... The roster had SIX (6) players with qualifying player rating history experience at 50-Major+ (R/I = 9) during their two most recent years of SSUSA participation ... Some of those players appear to have "sat it out" for a year or two under the (fairly common) mistaken belief that their 50-Major+ experience would expire over that time ... That approach fails because when a player suspends his SSUSA participation, we stop the countdown timer, too ... The two most recent years or Seasons of participation, not to be confused with the two most recent calendar years or Seasons, is the criteria we use for determining R/I experience history for the current roster ...
The maximum number of "out of rating" (an R/I higher than the team's) players we will allow on a roster is three ... The roster YOU submitted to us for your "new team" is comprised of DOUBLE that maximum allowable number ... The reality is that YOU, and not SSUSA, determined your initial rating when you submitted your Master Roster ...

We recognize that you are dissatisfied with the initial team rating you have based on your own roster composition, so here are our two best suggestions on how to remedy that, in order of priority:

Play at your rating and let the results become part of the evaluation process, for us to recognize through your results and data while playing; or
Re-evaluate your roster composition so that it does not exceed the allowable three "out-of-rating" players ...

The core value in our rating system and philosophy is that we will protect lower rated teams in all cases against teams that, at least on paper (where you are now as a "new team"), appear to be clearly superior ... Lastly, an anonymous post on our Message Board is 100% certain to not result in the change you desire ... Good luck in the CT Senior games should you remain in the event ...

May 21, 2016
The Tone
5 posts
SSUSA, I don't want to go back and forth with you, so all I will say is we won't be playing in Ct. Master's because there are no 55 Major Plus teams from her to Florida so there is nobody to play there. Also we don't have a budget of $30,000 to fly all over the country to play 55 Major Plus teams so we can get beat up just so you can re-rate us.
Oh and I won't get into the many teams that have won World Championships at certain Classes, moved up one year and the following year was back in the class they won the year before.
And please don't tell me that they play in against teams in the class they moved up to and didn't fair well.
Last but not least it will be my last post because I really don't want to argue with anyone. I am just not happy the way SSUSA rates teams
May 21, 2016
BobbyShea
13 posts
I feel your pain. This seems very similar with the 55 Major Plus rating for Genesee Rochester. We participated in Fort Myers in the 50 Major Division and went 3-3. That was considered "too competitive" for us to play 55 Major this year. We would have to give 55 Major teams 5 runs per game for this year, and many of those teams beat us "straight up" last year. One huge problem seems to be the number of players that have played in other age divisions (50's) to help another local team, and then they do well which boosts your original 55 team to Major Plus status. The best remedy as far as I am concerned is to let teams like Sports Center WIN first before moving them up.
May 21, 2016
taits
Men's 65
4548 posts
Tone....it down somewhat.
Been there.

As I see it you initiated a 'new team". And as such they usually a start off as AAA, but IF, SSUSA finds "discrepancies" in the proposed roster as far as players go, & may have played at a higher ratings bracket within the last two years and IF again, there are more than 3 players that did so, you're likely to be booted up as it seems happened at least as how I read this. But I've been wrong before.
I played on a team a couple years ago that was an established team but wanted to go to a different event. They picked up at least three above our rating and were moved up. I didn't go with them cause I knew they didn't have a chance and they didn't do well.
Teams are given the primary "rating", however players are also rated* and it does effect the team they play on. Via the rating index which works pretty well.
* player ratings come into effect by the team they play on whether or not they (the players) are any good.
So it you pick up a player know their team history. That's part of the managers job. I think it you are looking and need a definite answer as to who is rated what, Call and ask them, I think you will get a reply from most likely George.
Teams always seem to get pissed when moved up but rarely complain when moved down unless their performance saw to that on its own.
One thing is for sure there are many areas that lack M+ teams that play, and having to play in combined brackets in my opinion sucks. But it is a event to attend if you think it would be worth the time & expense.
One way to find out who possible might attend is to look at the past tournaments played... most teams seem to attend the same ones each year.
You'll work it out. Have fun and enjoy the game but stay healthy.
May 22, 2016
tattooball
756 posts
So there is a team in the northeast 55 major that has won or come in 2nd in Vegas multiple times and never been moved up to +. This year picked up 3 major + rated players on top of the ones they already have. The rules are not the same for all.........
May 22, 2016
taits
Men's 65
4548 posts
I know a team that won I believe it was 7 events years ago and was never moved up. Team doesn't exist now under same manager & do not see it listed now. That was a Ca team back then.
I look at it as who you know, who you....
May 22, 2016
Matt43
22 posts
Tone, this problem is common with SSUSA rating. Three years ago my 70 team was rated Major because we had 3 rated Major Plus guys and the rest of the team was mostly AAA and couple AA. We played in the Vegas Worlds 70 Major and won the tournament by winning 7 to 1 in final. It was a fairly weak Major division. Not only did they move us to Major Plus they also moved the team we beat up. Therefore, we had the majority of AAA players now classified as a Major Plus player. Our friends had to leave the team in order for us to pick up more legitimate Major Plus players so we could compete. My friends had to wait a year and then submit forms to try and get rerated to where they belonged. Believe me at 70 years old we can't afford sitting out a year. I find many of the ratings by SSUSA are based on what you did in your 50 and 60's. Prime example, SSUSA allows 70 Major Plus 9 home runs per game. 2 years ago there were 4 70 Major Plus teams in the Country. These 4 teams averaged .6 home runs per game. It was suggested the 70 go to the "one up rule" and only have a 70 Major and AAA divisions. However, it was ignored. Being Rated Major Plus at 70 means you either play the same team most of the time over you go to a tournament with no Major Plus teams and play for nothing. It does become a waste of money
May 23, 2016
The Tone
5 posts
I talked to George today and decided to send an appeal form because I did some research and we did play 2013 & 2014 in Major Plus.
Our record against Major Plus teams was 0-7. We played Major teams & AAA teams those 2 years and the games we won were only by 1 - 6 runs per game.
So we did follow the guidelines and we only have 3 Major Plus players on our roster.
I think after they review what I sent them, They will put us where we belong.
Anyone that knows our team can tell you that we are a ggod Major team not a Major Plus team.
May 24, 2016
taits
Men's 65
4548 posts
Tone,
I think IF you had all your info needed (beneficial & ratings related) needed for re-evaluation, if all was favorable you might get what you want. Remember all I have is what is posted you have all related info needed from past events or should have to back up your points for this. Good luck.
I believe thay are as fair as possible as have about the best ratings 'scale' in use by any assn.

Food for thought: Some other thoughts\info to get might be umpires views and score book copies. Many teams keep them but not all and it is a valuable source for game info.
May 24, 2016
joel 1975
131 posts
tone don't get your hopes up if California teams whine about you you are done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 24, 2016
neck10
709 posts
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May 25, 2016
paul0784
Men's 60
218 posts
Joel, I believe you are correct on that one.
May 25, 2016
softball4b
Men's 70
1154 posts
East Coast / West Coast Bias. Always has been and always will be. West Coast always think East Coast teams load up and play ISSA and SPA because their roster will not be reviewed by SSUSA. East Coast teams thinks WC teams whine to Sac about their roster.

Truth is SSUSA is never on the right side because everybody for the most part complains about someone else. IMO we all try to build our rosters to complete and win. Regardless of the formula used there will be exceptions to the rule. Maybe this or that team had a great weekend because everyone of their players played out of their mind and or their competition had lost players and were not on the same level as before.

Bottom-line we as players and as teams have the choice to participate or not. From personal experience, first ask if there is a remedy, exercise such and then if you are unhappy with the result, make an informed decision as to your action.

Mike Adair
May 25, 2016
neck10
709 posts
mike I think it's like anything else you do the more you play, SENIOR BALL whatever , the more you play the more people kno your team you get a better rating, because everyone kno's you. I was mad because we got hosed last year in world's then we got moved up, I knew we had the best team goin in I knew it was a matter of time before we got moved up, if we would have got moved up during the season last year I would not have liked it but would have thought wow they really do pay attention to what you do during regular season. Now we are rated 60 major plus & no one to play ,just no team's in Midwest ,shones us& pope that's it. well last weekend us and shones both played 55 major & as for as I no combined we went 1 for 10 & the only victory was a forfeit from shon's to us. I don't have a clue what there problem was our's was we didn't hit, we usely have a speed advantage not with five yr's younger guy's. There's only a few team's fully sponcered team's, how do you expect to compete with them,cost player nothing.pretty easy to decide where you are going , the only thing that save's a little is only two player's out of region & we have one of thos great player.
May 25, 2016
softball4b
Men's 70
1154 posts
I hear you, but there is a reason it is the top of the mountain. Only a few reach it and fewer still stay there.

I have been there and I am working hard trying to get back there.

We often play teams 5 years younger or up in class. It is a simple function of age (fewer teams) and economics (regional/local tournaments).

Lace em up and let's play.
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