I understand that rolled bats are considered illegal. You can achieve the same thing by carefully hitting of a tee a few hundred times or using a bat hammer (a softball mounted on a shaft). So why is rolling considered illegal?

Vito ... The ONLY authorized (legal) method to break in a bat is to use it in the manner intended by the manufacturer: Striking regulation softballs with that bat ... Any other procedure that results in changing the technical specifications of the bat as it was manufactured is defined as altering ...

Accordingly, your tee-ball example is allowable ... Employing a bat-hammer device is not ... The three most recent 10-year bat-altering suspensions involved "rolled" bats ... If you are a registered member of SSUSA and have a valid email address, you received a comprehensive email about rolled bats on Friday ...

Good luck this season ...

Just registered today, so didn't see that email or I wouldn't have posted.

No worries, Vito ... It was a fair question, and we were just directing you to relevant and recent information on point ... Thanks for your contribution!

Any way I can get that email?

Just curious: How does someone tell the difference between a bat that has been "rolled" or "hammered" versus one that has been broken in legitimately through use? Is there an obvious "tell"? Or does it require more sophisticated testing?

If you have ever seen a bat rolled you might understand the difference. When these cheaters have their bats rolled they get squeezed down to about half the size of the barrel of the bat. Rolling a bat breaks the composite material down more than you will ever get just by hitting the bat. That's how they can tell if bat has been rolled which I am glad to hear because some of the people I have heard saying they can't tell if it's been rolled which I always disagreed with them about. I am not sure they will be able to tell a bat has been "hammered" on or not but your a fool if you either have your bat rolled or have broken in by any other manner that taking bp. Most bats today are good to go at 75-100 swings go take some damn bp and quit cheating! JMO!

Vito ... Please call the SSUSA Home Office at (916) 326.5303 during normal business hours in the Pacific time zone ... Ask for Nic ... He's the editor of the Newsletter and he can send one your way ... Since you're an anonymous poster here, we have no way of knowing where to send it ... Thanks!

"When these cheaters have their bats rolled they get squeezed down to about half the size of the barrel of the bat." lb16 is that what you meant to say? Because the way I read it that means a bat barrel would be reduced in size from 2-1/4 inch diameter to 1-1/8".

Not sure that is even possible with what I know about composite materials. That much crushing would result in massive cracks in the material. I spent 40+ years of my life as an engineer so I have to be reading your post wrong. If you look on youtube under 'bat rolling' you'll see the equipment they use and none of it is capable of reducing a cylinder of composite material from 2-1/4" diameter to 1-1/8" without severe damage.

Dave Velasquez that was a utube bat tester for years and works with engineers now at Short Porch says ," that bat rolling does not add anymore to performance than breaking it in by hitting and says it actually extends the life of the bat ".
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I would tend to believe him more than people who do not have his depth of experience .

In any case , you are right about new bats breaking in in 40 or less hits . They are starting out new at sub 200 compression . So now it is a moot point .

I hate to sound dumb: But, what is a hammered bat???

Gary, there are actually tools called bat hammers(or mallets) used in cricket. A ballplayer did a similar thing by mount a softball on the end of a hammer handle to use to 'break in" a bat. This instead of hitting balls off a tee. As you can see from the thread here it's not allowed. Here is the video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3L4njAr_m4

I will once again ask this question in hopes of getting an answer. Can I get my Bats that I am Currently swing and that are 2 - 3 years old checked for compliance at a Tourny to make sure they are good to use. Never been anything but swung in BP and Games. I just want to be sure there is NO PROBLEM using them.

Oldballs, 1) It depends on whether there is a compression tester at the complex you are playing at. 2) It depends if the Directors want to spare you the time to test your bats.

Oldballs, and 3) depends on whether you are willing to have your bat confiscated if it fails compression and then checked further for any alteration.

MurrayW ... SSUSA does not confiscate bats. We do, however give the owner a choice, sort of like the "implied consent" driving rules in most states. If your bat fails initial field testing, we will ask you to voluntarily surrender your bat for further testing/analysis. So far, everyone we have asked to consider this option has done so. If a person were to decline, that would mark Day #1 of their lifetime suspension from SSUSA eligibility.

Lets say I have a bat that fails. I surrender the bat. It fails further testing. What happens to the bat??

If it fails further testing and obviously I did not use it in the tournament, am I still dead for 10 years?

If so, do not buy a used bat from anyone.

garyheifner ... SSUSA presumes that ANY bat you bring onsite at the tournament facility is one you use ... A "failed test" bat, regardless how you might have acquired it, that is later confirmed to be altered will result in a 10-year hiatus from SSUSA events ...

Are directors allowed to just ask someone to surrender their bat for testing if they don't have a tester on hand to test the bats?

So depending on your answer will lead to my next question which is in order to test someones bat that would mean the director or someone representing SSUSA on site will have a tester, will that tester be available for players to have their bats checked to ensure they pass before they are used?

JohnO28 ... [1] As a Director, I'm not going to ask anyone to surrender a bat for testing if there's no SSUSA-owned tester on site ... That would probably be a waste of your time and mine ... I'm also not going to seek to borrow a tester from a third party like a player or manager ... I would expect other Directors to take that same approach ...

[2] Which makes your second question a bit of a hypothetical, but here's my personal non-binding opinion ... I have suggested that SSUSA try to develop some procedure that would allow pre-testing that doesn't require significant additional personnel on site nor unreasonably delay play ... I don't know what that "balance is" ... It seems logical to approach it like we do pre-event roster composition ... Just like you have to have everyone on your roster before the 1st pitch of your team's first game, I think I would prefer any voluntary bat testing occur on that same timeline ... This is, obviously, an evolutionary process, so your suggestions are welcome ... Thanks!

Do not trade your buddy for a bat. Do not buy a used bat. Do not buy a bat from a source that advertises rolled, shaved, laquered or any other modifications. Don't put it in a bat warmer. Don't sleep with it :-).

You are responsible for all bats in your possession at a tournament. If the bat was not purchased from a reputable dealer or kept safe in your possession, you are subject to a ban of 10 years(if you're playing 65s, that really life).

You do not have to surrender your bat for further testing if it fails compression, but that comes with a lifetime ban anyway.

One of the folks just suspended for 10 years, voluntarily went to the tournament director and asked him to test his new bat before the start of the tourney. Neither he nor his team was asked to submit their bats for testing. He wanted to make sure it was legal. It was not. It had been rolled (at his direction) by the online company that sold him the bat. He assumed that it was just like breaking it in with bp. He had not used the bat previously as his receipt showed the purchase was after the last tournament. Didn't matter. He had it there with intent to use. So please be careful about buying used bats or trading bats with your buddies. There is no reasonable way to determine if a bat has been rolled unless you cut it open. And your bat, however you got it, has been altered you are forever a spectator.

I have a few different bats that I will bring to early morning games when the temp is below 68°, just for the purpose of BP only. They have NOT been altered in any way. They are OLD ASA bats. I know they are NOT legal in SSUSA. I am just trying to make my Game bats last longer. SSUSA is assuming that I am going to use it in the game is TOTAL CRAP. What about players that bring weight bats. Is SSUSA assuming those bats will be used also during the game?

@Not Dave-

As a director, I am not testing your ASA (USA), USSSA or weighted bat because they aren't legal for use in an SSUSA game anyhow. I really don't care what you swing in BP.

Step in the box with an ASA (USA) or USSSA bat during the game and you've created a different set of problems for yourself.

Tim, I appreciate that. I understand what will happen stepping in the box with an illegal bat. Never have, never will. According to SSUSA Staff, SSUSA presumes that ANY bat you bring onsite at the tournament facility is one you use. I just wanted to make sure. Hopefully ALL Directors will think like you.

Not Dave - I ASSUMED when I read the post that is "implied" to senior bats you bring onsite because SSUSA rules are very clear as Tim pointed out on any non senior bat, very easily determined by umpires when you step into the box (or should be easy). You can always ask at any tourney just to be on the safe side. Good luck to all in 2025!

Murray W I am not worried if they did " Confiscate " my bat for further testing. They have ALL been purchased thru either SUNCOAST or a SUNCOASR REP. and have NEVER been used nor been out of MY possession. I am just curious to see where they are at in compression. If they are below what is allowed I will replace them with New bats. To SSUSA I think that asking to have a bat tested would be Welcomed to help ELIMINATE bats that may just be well used. Guess it is just to much of an INCONVENIENCE for tourny Directors to work with players who WANT to be within the Rules. SAD,SAD,SAD !!!!!!!!!

Oldballs

U are right. SSUSA should welcome players who request to have their bat tested. It it fails the player should not be suspended. In fact, at that point SSUSA can have it as far as I am concerned and do with it whatever.

It would help SSUSA to sort out illegal bats. I understand the need for rules. However, SSUSA needs to work with players who are trying to do the right thing.

garyheifner, you are right. It would be help SSUSA to sort out illegal bats. SSUSA also needs rules. BUT, SSUSA will NEVER let the players have anything to say about how SSUSA is run. That would take control away. I guess if you volunteer to have your bat tested before the game and it does not pass, you could not accused of cheating. But if they check your bat AFTER the game, they COULD accuse you of cheating. If SSUSA allowed players to have a vote on rule changes, most of the rules that SSUSA would like to implement would not pass. Just like they did not allow players to vote on Bat Warmers. Even though Bat Manufactures tell you to not use your bat under the temp of 65° to prevent it from breaking. I feel that if SSUSA allowed players to vote on the use of Bat Warmers it would pass overwhelming in favor to allow bat warmers, at least in cold weather games only.

Not Dave,

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think overall what SSUSA is trying to do by getting the cheaters out of the game is a great thing. We've all been to tourneys and seen guys swinging bats that make people question if their legit or not. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a very well broken in bat and a shaved bat because bats that are very close to breaking can test lower than shaved bats and produce better results.
I am 100% for the testing of bats but even though it's new to them it's all over the place on protocols. From the very get go of the announcement of the testing that was going to be done it was very vague aside from the testing number being 140 and the penalties for swinging a bat that failed compression. I asked dozens of times on here if they are going to make us surrender OUR property or be banned for life that they need to give us detailed steps in the process and it was ignored over and over again until finally we got a slightly less vague description of what would happen. I don't believe they ever answered the question that if they take an OG Dudley or similar bat in price and cut it open only to find out it wasn't altered are they going to replace the bat for market value because offering anything NIW wrapper isn't comparable to an OG Dudley.

In Vegas our bats were all "randomly" selected to be tested on Friday and every single bat passed because we made sure ahead of time that all of our bats were good. We were then told by that director that if we were to qet asked to test again at a different park that we should tell them that our bats were tested on Friday and to call the director because he documented names and bats each player had and what their testing numbers were at. He said it would allow them to test more teams bats and not waste time testing the same team over and over. I told her that and she said I could care less what he told you we are testing your bats. So here we are in between back to back games we had to test bats which meant taking every bag out of the dugout going up to the table and then testing every bat in each persons bag. We had guys trying to use the washroom between games and get something to eat and she wasn't allowing any of that and said we have a time schedule to keep we don't have time for you to be doing that. Which is utter BS. In the 5 minutes we would normally get between games to use the washroom and get food and sit down we spend standing in line getting bats tested in the sun. It's ridiculous. Several of the guys even wrote their test numbers on the bats and their machine was within a few pounds of it. So she knew our bats were legit.

When SSUSA implemented these rules and punishments it became very unfair to guys who don't have the extra cash to buy a tester and don't know anyone with a tester who have well used bats. If they are going to implement rules like this that can alter an persons entire playing ability they need to have testers at every field and test every bats BEFORE the tourney starts. But that would actually mean some directors would have to do more. Quite honestly I think we played 11 or 12 tourneys last year and I can tell you truthfully we actually had to check in with either players card of ID exactly 3 times all year. The rest of the year me as the manager was only required to turn in a signed roster for that weekend.

Make sure there is a tester at every facility and when each player checks in with ID of some sort test their bat(s) and give them official that is good for a month or so and make sure it's a sticker that if you peel if off it's ruined. That will ensure every player is swinging a good bat, then if someone walks up to the plate without a stickered bat then that bat is either surrendered for testing or the ban gets handed out...

If this is truly about safety then nip it in the bud before someone gets hurt not after. With all of the damn money we pay to play in these tourneys and get less and less each year and continue to be the only association besides One Nation ($10) for a players card they can damn well afford to pay to have a tester at every facility and someone to do the testing.

As far as bat warmers I fully agree, they don't have that big of an effect on compression of the bat and it's honestly more about the frozen ball than the bat but when you're no longer allowed to use less hot bats like ASA/USA and USSSA bats during cold weather and guys start breaking more and more of the most fragile bats on the market and the only ones wihtout warranties one of 2 things will happen. Guys will stop playing SSUSA in the colder months and look for alternatives to play which are more and more abundent each year or just wait until it's warm enough. Either will result in less money made my SSUSA.

So in the comment by SSUSA staff if a bat fails the compression test but the bat owner does not surrender their bat (maybe just from normal use and no shaving or rolling) then that person starts their ten year suspension? So if that bat is found to be unaltered but just used does SSUSA provide a replacement? SSUSA says it's not to be used in tournament play but your are rendering that bat useless to the owner if they still want to use it as a winter BP bat.

@ Not Dave-

SSUSA doesn't accept rule change suggestions from the message board, but it has always welcomed and encouraged player input on rules if formally submitted. We simply ask that you send an email identifying yourself (name, age group,etc) along with a clear description of what you'd like to see changed and how / why. The annual rules committee agenda includes a number proposals submitted by the membership. More often than not, submissions from the players exceed submissions from "staff."

I've attended 12-15 SSUSA conventions across the country and can't remember a time when there weren't some players, managers and / or sponsors in attendance. There have also been times when I reached out to potentially impacted players over the phone, from the convention site to get their opinion on a rule that was being discussed. Others on the committee have done the same at one time or another.

I think that we had 5 guys in attendance for the Tucson convention and each had an opportunity to speak. If not mistaken 2 roster related rule changes came out of it.


Opinions are appreciated, but the suggestion that SSUSA will "NEVER" allow the players to have a say is factually incorrect. Tim

So in the comment by SSUSA staff if a bat fails the compression test but the bat owner does not surrender their bat (maybe just from normal use and no shaving or rolling) then that person starts their ten year suspension? So if that bat is found to be unaltered but just used does SSUSA provide a replacement? SSUSA says it's not to be used in tournament play but your are rendering that bat useless to the owner if they still want to use it as a winter BP bat.

Mikelmart ... The "older/well-worn" bat that fails compression testing will be marked as "Illegal for SSUSA Play" and returned immediately to the player ... The owner may use it for BP, in other association events or simply to pound tent stakes into the ground ...

To date, "newer" bats that fail compression testing comprise the vast majority of "altered bats" ... Those bats, and their owners, will enter the protocol, starting with the "..will you voluntarily surrender your bat for further analysis & testing?.." query ... How it plays out from there depends on the player's response and the results of subsequent testing ...

Only comment I have is testing prior to competing is a positive choice concerning safety. Checking bats is a needed protocol for our sport! Aloha, Fabe

Just curious DaveDowell: define "older/well-worn" bats. I'm not sure why those bats would be returned to the owner, with no further investigation, if they failed a compression test, but a "newer" bat that failed would get a request for further inspection. Couldn't both bats be shaved or altered? And what would be the determining factor to classify a bat as old or new?

The "older/well-worn" bat is the one that looks like it's been your go-to bat for more than just the current/prior season ... When we started this bat check process last summer, those bats that failed and were sent in for further testing were deemed as "clean' ... Conversely, every failed "altered" bat so far has been a "newer" (recent) model ...

All bats decline in compression test results over legal time/usage ... When a bat is near the end of its useful life (i.e., ready to break), it is more likely to test under 140, whether or not altered ... An older bat that fails also needs to be removed from the game from a safety perspective ... That's easily accomplished by permanent marking and returning ...

Will we miss a few cheaters here and there? ... You bet ... The goal here is to remove dangerous bats from competition ... Identifying cheaters and removing them, too, is a favorable side-effect ... If we do that, the cheater who's been doing it for years will need a new bat, and probably won't be able to resist still being a cheater ... Hopefully, he'll "get his 10" eventually ...

got it. Thanks!

SSUSA Dave, if I understand your proposal correctly, then I like it and agree with. I believe what you were saying is you'd like to see a process where bats could be tested voluntarily prior to the start of a tournament and if that bat fails the player can't use it, but would not be banned for life. Did I correctly interpret what you were suggesting?

I've purchased my bats from friends who say they're not doctored. I'm probably as far as you can get from a power hitter, my game is to "try" to hit it where defenders aren't. So, a rolled bat doesn't aid my ability, but I can't say with 100% certainty if I have a doctored bat or not.

I would gladly offer up my bat(s) for testing before a tournament and if it fails I'd be perfectly fine not using it. Banning people for an honest mistake doesn't seem right, especially if they're offering their bat for testing. I hope that makes sense and I hope SSUSA goes that route.

The process for the "older/well-worn" bats is as described and has some latitude ... Generally, we will test and return if it fails ... That is NOT the approach for "newer" bats ... There is NO get-out-of-jail-free process ... If you show up to the tournament and offer a "newer" bat for testing, you will be advised BEFORE we test it that if it fails, you WILL BE in the protocol ... The altered bats discovered to date have ALL been those bats ... Accordingly, we will be "zero-tolerance" on the newer ones ... We strongly advise you not bring shaved or rolled bats to the tournament ...

Thx for the quick response Dave. I was hoping the new rule would allow a player to offer ANY bat for testing prior to the tournament without fear of a player ban, especially since the definition of an "older/well-worn bat" could be subjective.

I still hope SSUSA moves to that position. In the meantime I'm going to start painting my bats to make sure they look worn. :) (BTW, that was intended to be humorous and not derogatory.)

Thx for always being helpful, Dave.

No worries, Rick ... I totally understand your posture on this ... Thanks for your verifiable insights ... That matters with us ...

Question. I buy a brand new bat (2023-2024-2025) model from a major bat company.
The bat is NOT shaved or rolled. I put 400-500 hits on it. What are the odds it would fail a test??? I

If you're the same Gary Heifner I've known for about 20 years, and unless you went all "Jack LaLanne Physique" on us since you started playing in the 80+ division, I like your bat's chances to pass! ... But I'm STILL going to give you the senior softball equivalent of the Miranda warning before I test it ... Good luck this season ...

I have multiple bats with 500+ swings on them that still test in the 170 range. If your bat test below 140 and isn't on the verge of cracking it's probably been altered. So you have no worries no matter how many swings are on your bat if it passes or not if it's not altered!

lb16, do you realize that you just accused everyone who's bat that dropped below 140 is a CHEATER? You really need to do research on bats before you make such an asinine comment. Composite bats can break down on the inside without showing cracks on the outside. That makes the bat much softer and will not pass the compression test. You owe all the players you just insulted and accused of cheating an APOLOGY!!

Masaons Grandpa,

You're spot on with this. I own my own tester and have tested bats that don't have a single crack but test under 130. People make comments and posts without any knowledge of what they're talking about. If you could show pics on here I would show you a few pics of a bat that doesn't have a single crack and isn't terribly worn that still smashed the ball but tests under 100. Not all things are always as they seem but you're exactly right composite bats generally break down internally first before you see a crack on the outside(seams are a different story) by time you see an actual crack on the outside it's already too late.

Mason and John-(above) U just made the case that if U approach the tester to ck your
bat, in good faith, and it fails-There is no way you should be banded. U are obviously trying to play fairly by the rules of fair competition.

Gary, let's make this easier to grasp, so we don't have to keep responding to every little "nudge" of the facts as you try to negotiate a "risk-free" test environment ... Our unwavering goal is to eliminate dangerous bats from play ... Any failing bat with a high(er) probability of being altered is going to be sent on for additional testing and NOT returned to the owner so he can try to slip it past the next tournament director ... This is really pretty straight-forward ...

Garyheifner,

I am 100% not opposed to bats being tested. Every player that plays this game wants to go home safe and healthy from every tourney to family, friends and even some to work. While the testing process isn't even a year old yet and from the sounds of it is a work in progress but I also 100% think that if SSUSA is going to potentially force players to either surrender their bats for testing or be banned that they have to allow bats to be tested prior to use with no repercussions. This is where the issue it going to happen.

SSUSA on this or another post made it quite clear that testing will only be available if they can do it where it's not going to cost them more money. I believe the term they used was "they have to find a way for another person not having to be at the field to test" which in Engish means we don't have to pay anyone else to check bats. But they expect players to know what their bats test at which requires players to either purchase a tester or find someone who does. Not trying to by cynical here but it's another case of SSUSA making rules that cost the players more money and them nothing. I applaud them for trying to get cheaters out of the game but the way they have it set up costs the non cheating players more money each year, if SSUSA wants to make rules about testing and they should have testers at every facility and test and sticker bats prior to someone getting hurt not after someone gets hurt. With the amount of money each team pays just to be a part of this association along with individual players fees is ridiculous compared to what every other association charges. $50 a team plus what $35 per person on the team. That is literally half a million dollars in registration fees alone then the tourney fees that are higher than every single other association out there per tournament and give out less than any of them as well.

I'm all for getting cheaters out but strongly disagree with the way SSUSA is doing it.

Gary & JohnO28, I'm all about playing fairly. In ASA (USA) and USSSA you do not get band. The only association that bands it's players is SSUSA. They really do not care if you are trying to be honest. They just want to catch players and make an example of them. I know of at least 6 players that have ordered the G4 SSL Bat Compression Tester from Bat Testing Solutions LLC that SSUSA is using. This way they can test players bats before they enter the complex. I'm thinking about it also. By trying to do the right thing, SSUSA does not want to hear it. Every player, Men and Women should receive 1-ONE-UNO warning. I do not want to use the word (CAUGHT) If a players bat fails and it is that players second failed test, there needs to be an independent testing site. Before the player is SUSPENDED, he should have the option at his cost to have the bat tested independently. If his Bat PASSES, he does not get suspended and SSUSA should reimburse said player. If the Bat is found to be altered "SAYONARA" player. In SSUSA's eyes, you are GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. After SSUSA sends your bat to be tested there is a good chance it will be cut open and examined. That means when or IF they return the bat to the player HE or SHE will not be able to get a second opinion.

Masons,

I don't think they are just trying to make examples of people. If they were they would have released the names of all the players who were banned/suspended already. They also wouldn't have allowed it to take 3 full months from the time they took a very well known Senior players bats for failing in compression in Vegas to come back with the results

I want to make it perfectly clear. I am NOT attaching any member of the SSUSA Staff. Just my opinion. I have been reading all the posts about Bat Warming, Bat Shaving, Bat Rolling and Compression Testing. Bat Warmers are not bad for the game. They protect the bats. COLD BALLS ARE MUCH WORST THAN BAT WARMING. Bat Shaving is NO GOOD, Bat ROLLING give or take. All it does is break in your bat faster. Where I play in the south Bat Rolling is allowed. That means it will break faster and the Bat Companies will do more business. I agree if a Bat falls under the 140 test margin the bat should be removed from the game. But if we do NOT know what the compression is, why are players be suspended? If SSUSA is not going to test every single player they should not test any player. I do not know how many players there are in SSUSA, but I'm guessing over 15K. I know some teams were tested twice at Worlds last year while other teams were not even looked at. That's NOT fair. I know the Compression Testers are expensive. But if you do not have enough of them to be able to test everyone, you should not test anyone. Mr.Hennessy is the MAJORITY owner of SSUSA. I want to know if HIS Bats are being tested too? Also, what happens if his bat fails? We will never know.

Played this past weekend and heard players talking that said they would get lawyers involved if there bat failed the compression test and was taken for testing and was found to be NOT altered after being cut open, who pays for the new bat at approx 300$???

Its gonna get interesting.

Considering all the above, I hope all see where I am coming from. Dave is right that it is not likely my bat will fail even though I am pounding Muscle Milk.

What I don't want to happen is an honest upright player have a bat that fails and get, at our age, is pretty much the death penalty.

It sucks that a few bad eggs creates problems for all of us.