It came to my attention that the RULES Committee voted 9-1 yesterday to make Bat Warmers illegal. I see a HUGE issue. I use a bat warmer and have for over 20 years. Last year they started compression testing bats (Randomly). I had my bats tested (TWICE) in Worlds. It was the same bat that I have used for a couple years now. I took it out of my warmer, handed it straight to the Testers, IT PASSED at 190 compression pounds. The bat probably had 700+ swings on it. I had ALL (5) my bats tested. The lowest one was 170. The Highest was 200. ALL WERE WITHIN RANGE.

THIS RULE IS STUPID
§3.4(4) • ALTERED EQUIPMENT – Proposal to ban the use of bat warmers was presented, adopting the USA Softball rule that states: “[T]he characteristics of any approved equipment cannot be unnaturally changed. Examples include icing, cooling, or heating of any equipment. In addition, approved bats shall
not be rolled, shaved or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Warming devices for bats are not approved.” • PASSED: 9-1-0.

Anyone that purchased a NEW bat, probably noticed under the clear wrapping, there are instructions on how to use and maintain your Bat. You may not have read the instructions. On that instruction slip it states that you should NOT USE THE BAT UNDER 64 DEGREES.
How many of you have played the first game of the day when it is in the 50's or lower?
Under 64 degrees you have a good chance of breaking your bat, without using a bat warmer. If that is the case, players will NOT be using their bats until it reaches at least 64 degrees or higher. Will SSUSA be supplying bats until it reaches the minimum temperature? IF, you are forced to use your bat and it breaks, Will SSUSA buy you a new bat? We spend a lot of money for these bats. By using a warmer your bat will last much longer.
I know what a lot of you are thinking. "IS SSUSA IN CAHOOTS WITH THE BAT MANUFACTURERS" to sell more bats? I am NOT saying that that is true. But it sure looks like they are.

I can see it being illegal if only certain TEAMS or PLAYERS are allowed to use a Bat Warmer. But that is NOT the case. Anybody and Everybody can get a Bat Warmer. That puts everyone on the same playing field. It is YOUR choice to use one or not.

If SSUSA wants to enforce the rule. They should only enforce it once it reaches 68 degrees. IF, it is under 68 degrees (looking at the temp on the UMPIRES phone, during the coin toss) you can use your warmer during the entire game.

If they are NOT really going to enforce the rule, but just have it in the books to cover their butts, then it's no big deal. SSUSA has a number of rules that they do NOT enforce even if it's in the rule book.
I do NOT know how many players use bat warmers. I do know that there are a lot of you using one kind of warmer or another.
What happens to ALL the Manufactures out there that Sell Bat Warmers legally? Now they are being told what they can and cannot sell?

Dblb32 I couldn't agree more. I break 2 bats a year. I need a bat warmer when it's 70 or below. So what can we do to make sure our bats are ready to use when it's cold?

Just another example of the people making the rules don't actually play the game.

Is using the sun via a solar bat sleeve included in this rule ? I hope not….

I totally also agree with DBLB32. Players should be allowed to use Bat Warmers (Their Choice). There is one thing that nobody has mentioned. We are NOT allowed to but the balls in a cooler. Honest players do not have a problem with that rule. The reason is, when the ball is cold it goes further, faster and could be a little harder. So, from what I have noticed, if you happen to be playing in the first morning game of the day and the Temp is in the 50's or lower the ball is also colder & harder. If your bat is cold there is a much higher risk of your bat breaking. These bats are not cheap. There are bats out there that are failing the compression text straight out of the wrapper. Yet, bats that have been in a Bat Warmer are passing the CT. GO FIGURE

This just seems like another way SSUSA helps manufacturers make more money. Last year was the "All bats used must carry the SSUSA approved stamp". It's unsafe to use ASA bats which anyone who knows anything about bats knows aren't anywhere near as hot as Senior bats. Now they take away a viable option to help protect Senior bats in cooler temps from breaking. There is no possible reason that isn't related to money for this rule, it has nothing to do with safety.

Ironically, if you read the USA rules on Altered bats it says absolutely nothing about icing or cooling of a bat. Directly from the 2024 USA Rules:

ALTERED BAT: A USA Softball Official Bat’s characteristics shall remain fixed at the time of manufacture and may not be altered in any way other than specifically provided for in Rule 3, Section 1 or as specifically approved by USA Softball. Approved bats shall be considered altered if they are rolled, shaved, repainted, weighted or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Identifying the bat by means of laser marking, engraving, or painting the name or number of the player will not make the bat an altered bat.

...Or, for the sake of intellectual integrity, you could have also included the relevant section of the USA Softball Rulebook (at page 40) that actually DOES reference bat warming devices ...
__________

SECTION 7 • ALL EQUIPMENT

Notwithstanding the foregoing, USA Softball reserves the right to withhold or withdraw approval of any equipment which, in USA Softball's sole determination, significantly changes the character of the game, affects the safety of participants or spectators, or renders a player's performance more a product of the player's equipment rather than the player's individual skill.
Note: The characteristics of any approved equipment cannot be unnaturally changed. Examples include icing, cooling, or heating of any equipment. In addition, approved bats shall not be rolled, shaved or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Warming devices for bats are not approved.
__________

John028, please read page 40 of the online 2024 USA Rule Book, which states (SEE LAST SENTENCE): ….USA Softball reserves the right to withhold or withdraw approval of any equipment which, in USA Softball’s sole determination, significantly changes the character of the game, affects the safety of participants or spectators, or renders a player’s performance more a product of the player’s equipment rather than the player’s individual skill. Note: The characteristics of any approved equipment cannot be unnaturally changed. Examples include icing, cooling, or heating of any equipment. In addition, approved bats shall not be rolled, shaved or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Warming devices for bats are not approved.

Are we talking about the silver lined plastic sleeve case you mount on a fence and fold up and put away when you are done?

Question…is the sun considered a warming device.? Lots of players prop their bats on the fence to warm them up using radiant heat produced but the sun (it works).

Please read the SECTION 7 ALL EQUIPMENT Rule.

SECTION 7 • ALL EQUIPMENT

Notwithstanding the foregoing, USA Softball reserves the right to withhold or withdraw approval of any equipment which, in USA Softball's sole determination, significantly changes the character of the game, affects the SAFETY OF PARTICIPANTS AND SPECTATORS, or renders a player's performance more a product of the player's equipment rather than the player's individual skill.
Note: The characteristics of any approved equipment cannot be unnaturally changed. Examples include ICING, COOLING or HEATING of any equipment. In addition, approved bats shall not be rolled, shaved or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Warming devices for bats are not approved.

Like I mentioned before. WHEN THESE BALLS ARE COLD, THE TRAVEL FURTHER, FASTER AND THE BALLS ARE HARDER. isn't that putting players (PITCHER,3B & 1B)in HARMS WAY? They are the closest to the batter. Isn't that an unsafe situation? The Rule also says "RENDERS A PLAYER'S PERFORMANCE MORE A PRODUCT OF THE PLAYER'S EQUIPMENT RATHER THAN THE PLAYER'S INDIVIDUAL SKILL". EXAMPLE: A Player in warm weather hits the ball at the speed of 80 MPH at His or Her Natural Skill level. Now the Ball is COOLER and He or She can now hit the ball at 85-90MPH. ISN"T THAT ADDING TO OR CHANGING THE PLAYER"S SKILL LEVEL?

What will the penalty be if you use a NATURALLY HEATED WARMER? AND, What if all the players on both teams use a warmer? Is SSUSA going to eject them from playing? Does that mean it is a DOUBLE FORFEIT?

SSUSA, we are not, or at least I'm not trying to bust your chops. The players are what makes SSUSA so successful. We do appreciate ALL that you do and have created. But you should really listen to the players. We do understand the Rule about Shaving Bats. Whoever was the one Committee member that voted to allow Bat Warmers, WE APPLAUD YOU.

Yes when the Balls are COOLER they travel much better and quicker. How many of you have played the first game of the day and it is in the low 50's and the field is WET? Using a COOLER Ball AND playing on a WET field puts EVERYONE in danger of getting hurt. When a ball skips off the wet field we all know it picks-up SPEED. Personally I have seen MANY players get hurt because they cannot react fast enough to prevent an injury. Is that not making it unsafe to play also? We ALL know as players that we have to give a little to play this game that we all love. SO DOES SSUSA. LISTEN TO THE ONES THAT PLAY IT. NOT THE ONES THAT SIT BEHIND A DESK or DIRECT.

"“[T]he characteristics of any approved equipment cannot be unnaturally changed. Examples include icing, cooling, or heating of any equipment. In addition, approved bats shall
not be rolled, shaved or modified to change their characteristics from that produced by the manufacturer. Warming devices for bats are not approved"

What is "unnatural" and what is a "device"? if i lay my bat in the sun is that natural? if the bat is in a black bag is that a device?

A bat that is in a SLEEVE, CLEAR POUCH or BOX is being heated by the SUN. It is NOT being heated by any mechanically device.

Last year SSUSA put in a NEW Rule about the Batters Box. The majority of the players did not agree with it. WE adjusted (Hopefully). Plus the New Rule about the COMMITMENT Line. OLD Rule was all you had to do is have ONE foot cross the line and you could NOT return to 3B or be tagged out. NOW you have to have BOTH feet cross the line. With these rule changes SSUSA is making it MUCH HARDER on the Umpires. Most Umpires do not even pay attention to the batters box rule. We gave in to those rule changes without a big stink about them. GIVE THE PLAYERS THE RIGHT TO USE BAT WARMERS IF THEY LIKE. It's their choice.

A Suggestion to ALL TEAMS. VIDEO all of your games. This way when you protest a Call and you stop the game for a Director to come over, you can show them the proof that a call was incorrectly made.

Mason's Grandpa ... There was extensive and vigorous discussion on this Agenda item ... The topic is complex, and has a direct relationship to the recently instituted bat compression testing program ("Heated" bats compression test lower than temperature "neutral" bats, creating the potential to manipulate testing results) ...

This proposal came to the attention of the National Rules Committee following multiple occurrences at the Winter World's in Phoenix where teams were setting up mini propane heaters near their bats in the dugouts, despite temperatures in the mid to upper 70° range ... Opponents complained, alleging an unfair performance advantage, but the SSUSA Rulebook was silent on the issue ... When the SSUSA rulebook doesn't cover an issue, the default is to the USA Softball rulebook, if applicable ... The Committee's action simply codified the adoption of the USA Softball rule on altering equipment ...

The sole dissenting vote was by a member who favored allowing only completely passive warming devices like the wood/glass/tin-foil box, the plastic/thermal sleeve or similar, but he garnered no other committee member support ... He did favor the majority in opposing the propane heater technology ...

BTW. When you are playing on an ARTIFICIAL Turf field and you lay your bat on the turf it will heat your bat faster and hotter. According to SSUSA it sounds like that the turf would be being used as a BAT WARMER. Like NOT DAVE said. GIVE (US) THE PLAYERS THE RIGHT TO USE BAT WARMERS.

SSUSA Staff... your vigorous discussion and result to me doesn't hold water. Like DBLB32 said. He took his used bat (700 swings) straight out of his warmer, in front of the tester. Handed it to the tester, it passed. NOT Barely, it passed by a lot. IF, using a bat warmer changes the compression like you say, why would players use one if it was going to make a bat illegal? It MIGHT change a bat a little. As long as it is within SSUSA's guidelines whats the problem? If it is deemed illegal, you just toss it out. But as long as the Bats pass there should be NO problem using a warmer. It seems logical to me and maybe others. SSUSA has not really thought this out very well before implementing the rule.
Does SSUSA really care about the SAFETY of it's players? I am NOT bashing you about this subject. I'm just saying. If you really cared about safety of players you would NOT play games when it was in the 50's or lower (Using Cold Balls). No Games would be played on WET fields. I know these are not realistic. ALL WE ARE ASKING IS YOU ALLOW BAT WARMERS AS LONG AS IT IS BELOW 70 DEGREES.
Like I asked before. What happens if BOTH teams used warmers? Will it be a DOUBLE FORFEIT? If so, what will that do to your Bracket?
As players, we are trying to improve Senior Softball. It seems that when it looks like we are taking steps forward, SSUSA throws a monkey wrench in it and we end up taking 3 steps backwards.
If you had an Iphone and you were told that you are NOT allowed to put a case on your phone to protect it and make it last longer, Would you still put a case on it if it meant it would last an extra year or more? or would you NOT put a case on it and have to buy a New Phone every year? All we are doing is making the tools of our trade last longer.
SSUSA's bottom line Compression is 140. Here are a few questions for SSUSA. What if a bat that used a Bat Warmer was tested and it was rated below 140? You would confiscate if or throw it out. CORRECT? What if the bat sat there for a while and it was tested again later in the day and it now passes the compression test? Would it be legal to use? Would you give it back to the player?
What it all comes down to is as long as it passes it is LEGAL

Grandpa ... We recognize, and respect, that you may not approve of the new rule on this ... That's fine ... Until there may be a change away from the rule, warming devices are not permitted ... The penalties for using altered equipment, which includes for example, softballs "on ice" or an illegally "heated bat" from a warming device are covered in Rulebook §3.4(6) on pages 15-16 ...

Grandpa, rule makes sense to me. Some geniuses with propane heaters forced the staff to add a rule to protect your game. Doesn't matter anyway since it applies to everyone. If you are worried about your bat breaking, don't use your best bat when its cold. Any further complaints should be directed to those geniuses

Ball Smasher, I very much respect your opinion. The player/s that are dump enough to bring a propane tank in the park to heat their bats should be SUSPENDED. To me it's just like Shaving a bat. The player should not be suspended like a bat shaver (10 years) But at least 1 year. Personally I will NEVER play on a team that has any player that is accused of using an altered bat. I do not want to be labeled as a cheater by GUILT of ASSOCIATION. We all know Players out there that have a reputation of using Shaved bats.
What we are asking for is the use of SOLAR Heater ONLY. The Clear bags that hang on the fence, any kind of Rubber Sleeve that is heated by the SUN or even a Solar Box. You do not see Solar boxes that mush anymore (pain in the ass to carry around). ALL OF THESE are SOLAR HEATED. There are a few bat warmers out there that you charge by battery or Microwave. Those bat warmers have been around for almost 10 years and SSUSA NEVER complained about the use of them. If SSUSA wants to band them, I see no problem with that.
Instead of SSUSA making these very unpopular decisions, Post the possible rule change to the website. Let PLAYERS Vote. Let the players see the running total without it being manipulated by SSUSA.

SSUSA STAFF, Rule 3.4 (6) Again the rule does NOT hold water as far as a heated bat. It covers SHAVED and ROLLED bats. If my bat is lying on Artificial Turf and it gets hot, is that an ALTERED BAT? If the Umpire says that your bat is to HOT, even if it was naturally by the SUN, is that an ALTERED BAT and you could be SUSPENDED? If you hang your Bat on the fence and the SUN heats it, is that an ALTERED Bat and you could get SUSPENDED? There is NOTHING that you can say that Justifies this rule. Personally I feel it is a bit Hypocritical. SSUSA uses cold balls in games that are played in the 50's or lower. ISN'T that an altered Ball?

SSUSA , can you please address the question posted on Dec. 6 by Nvjimmymac. Thank you

Ok here we go,I'm gonna duck for cover after this.I've recently returned to playing 3yrs ago,after a 37 yr break,and am now 71 yrs young. Some things have changed which I like, some that I do not like but accept. The safety bases at 1b/hp,runner line 3b/home,pitcher mask,etc I feel make the game safer. I do not understand this insatiable need for more powerful equipment that enables us to hit the ball further and with higher velocity.The equipment suppliers are only too happy to oblige us with $250 bats that have no warranty,and for most part have short shelf lifes, while pushing all the newer models as best thing since sliced bread. We have new improved balls that,when dirty,are difficult to see. We have diminishing skills and want this equipment to compensate for that, at any cost, even to defensive players. I understand some teams/players are always seeking an edge,but where will it end? I play 3x/wk and really do enjoy the game, and the cast of characters that occupy both dugouts. Geo

9 ball, There is no reason to duck for cover. You did not say anything I would fire back at you for. You and I are roughly the same age. Except I have been playing softball for almost 60 straight years. You are correct. Things have changed. We also like the changes that were made for safety reasons. When it comes to the Balls, the ones they are using SUCK. You are right in one aspect. By the third inning if not sooner the balls take on the color of the infield and are very difficult to see. But they are NOT New and improved. They are many steps below what they were using (ROCK). The Rock was the best ball they ever used. The Rock is still available to purchase. From what I understand, they were hard to get because of COVID. SSUSA had to find a ball. They went with the Baden Fire. I do not know if you are aware that there is a semi new ball out there made by ONYX. It is a very good ball. Probably the closest thing to the Rock. PLUS, they do NOT get dirty. They are excellent balls. SSUSA is still under contract with Baden for a few more years.
Players are not seeking an edge. If everyone has the option to use a warmer, what edge are they gaining? It's their choice. Players just want their equipment(Bats)to last as long as they can. Like you stated, $250 a bat with NO WARRANTY!!. ALL, I mean ALL we ask is if the Temp is lower than 70 degrees allow us to use some kind of a SOLAR Warmer. NOTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE CHARGE or MICROWAVED. Nor anything that needs a PROPANE TANK. Is that really asking a lot?
It might be possible that you do not break bats like a lot of us do. I do not know about you, but I cannot afford to buy 3 or 4 bats a year. If I did, I'd probably have an ex-wife.
Maybe if bat companies lowered their price on these bats and they came with a LIMITED WARRANTY we would probably not be having this discussion.
So you know. A couple years ago I bought a New Bat from a company to remain nameless. It broke within 30 swings. I do not swing all that hard. I called the Manufacture. After I explained what happen, the FIRST thing they asked me was and I quote "What was the Temperature while using the bat?" It was in early March, the temp was in the High 60's. He also told me not to use my bat if it is under 64 degrees. Back then you could pay extra for a one year warranty. He said if you did use it under 64 degrees it would VOID the warranty. They did replaced my bat. The new bat broke 5 months later at in Colorado. I have NOT used that companies bat ever again.
9 ball, I wish you nothing but the best in your upcoming season. Hope you and your team have Great SUCCESS in 2025.

Great points about the balls as well. SSUSA claims they care about the safety of the players and do not want altered bats and balls in the game. There have been MANY folks stating their concerns with these Baden balls and holding the irt and NOT being able to see, especially at dusk and night, yet NOTHING has been done. Someone is going to get seriousy injured and SSUSA does not seem to really care even though the players are addressing the issue. We actually played a team that kept all the old dirty balls to toss in at dust and night since the other teams were unable to see them. We brought this up to the ump, but it was a baden ball so nothing could be done, even though the players could not see the ball.

Yet, they will take the time to discuss and vote on bat warmers because a team brought a propane heater to the fields. Yes, illegal, penalize those players and devices since that is definitely altering the bat. Why, because of a propane heater, would you ban warming boxes/sleeves, the is not fait to the players. We are the one's that are having to purchase the new bats every time they break due to the cold weather. In my opinion only, I see that a lot of this seems more for the money with bat sponsor and manufactures that the players being able to enjoy a game we love. The entire safety issues do not seem to be a concern since Baden balls are still be used even after numerous complaints regarding these and plying in the cold where the bats and balls are below the recommended compliance from the manufacture and yet we are required to either play and risk injury of broken equipment and SSUSA does not seem to have any concerns regarding this.

Hopefully SSUSA will listen to the actual player concerns and grievances regarding these issues and make changes for the players that are actually on the fields and not sitting in offices working with the sponsors.

Sorry if I am out of line, but it just seems like it one thing after another and SSUSA is NOT hearing the players concerns.

You guys are mostly talking about temps in the 60s. We will be starting the winter season in Fl. On most mornings if U have the 8:30 or 9:00 games, the temps will be in the 40s. I can see the possibility of these temps at the TOC. Small bat warmer sleeves with a hand warmer inside should not be a problem. So, if my new $240 senior bat breaks barring my use of a simple bat warmer-- Dave make out the ck to Gary Heifner.

JohnO28, it sounds like you might think that there is some kind of controversy going on which there is not. I can assure you that there were exactly zero mentions of bat manufacturers or their ability to profit off of a proposed rule. I did find it interesting from those familiar with bat warmers what changes those do make in bat compression results. The ones with heaters were the ones that seem to have prompted this suggested rule change from what little I know about that. There was a lot of discussion on more ambient ways of heating a bat. I remember years ago officiating a game in brutal cold. A team had a propane heater in their dugout to keep bats and the team warm. While they were in the field, a bat completely melted. Bats and the temperature that they seem to break at were also part of the discussions.

Banditos180, , it seems that you agree that because one person brought a propane heater to heat there bats everyone else is GUILTY by ASSOCIATION. SSUSA will not allow it's players to have a say in rule changes. They are afraid that they will find out that the player will vote against them and they will get embarrassed.

garyheifner, thank you for your post. You are proving / supporting one of my points. It is a recommendation in writing from the Bat Manufacturers that you do not use these bats under 64 degrees. It seems that SSUSA is IGNORING the manufactures recommendations and is forcing you to put our expensive bats at risk. Maybe everyone that ends up with a broken bat because of having to play in COLD weather and using COLD BALLS because they are not allowed to use a Bat Warmer and their bat breaks SHOULD send a bill to SSUSA. Their address is on their website.

2 Questions for ALL:

1) If you use a Bat Warmer and it STILL passes the Compression test what is the problem?

2) If you do NOT use a Bat Warmer in COLD weather using Cold Balls and your bat breaks prematurely knowing that a warmer could have prevented your bat from breaking, now what do you think?

To me it is quite obvious that players are in favor of the use of some kind of SOLAR Bat Warmer. But again we are being IGNORED

Nancy Allen,

I'm not sure what the point of your post is to be honest. At no time did I mention a controversy. What I said was the bat manufacturers make out like bandits because of the new rules that SSUSA keep initiating. Last year it was no ASA bats any longer because they were "Unsafe" to use in SSUSA.. Ironically, ASA bats last much longer than Senior bats so who stands to profit? The bat companies. Who does it cost more money for: They Players...

Now they add the rule that states bat warmers can't be used because they alter the compression of a bat. So, more bats will break because the bats and balls will both be hit in tmeps under 65 degrees. Who is going to profit more: The bat companies. Who does it cost more money: The players...

Do you now see the trend? Every year SSUSA comes up with some new rule that costs the players more and more money while you continue to raise tourney fees and give us less and less in prize packages. So again who is getting the short end of the stick?

You vote on rules like this and claim they are for safety but there have been dozens of posts with countless people complaining about an actual safety issue the fact that the cheap garbage balls SSUSA uses for tourney get dirty very quickly and we can't see them after an inning or two which has a much higher chance of causing an injury. That is an actual safety concern that should have been addressed at this meeting but nothing was done about it. When we address this concern we are met with answers from DD like, buy more balls to ensure they are clean or his infamous seems like the players should clean the balls in between innings. Or when someone from the Staff or Dave doesn't like the tone of the post it gets closed with no resolution or many times just deleted altogether. WHen a new post is started to continue a discussion it gets shut down as well. So who profits from these 2 rule changes? The bat manufacturers because those people who play ASA as well as SSUSA were told they couldn't use an inferior bat to what Senior bats are because it's a safety issue and now bats will break much quicker. If we listen to Dave, we have to buy more balls which means more money in SSUSA pocket via balls sales all of which costs us the players more money..

Your comment that the people using the heaters were the ones that brought up changing the rules makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would the people using the heaters ask to change the rules? Living my enitre life in Chicago and having played year after year in "Snowball" tourneys in February in temps as low as 6 degrees and using a propane heater in the dugout we have never once melted a bat and I'm not doubting that witnessed it happen but any idiot knows not to put it right in front of the heater for any extended amount of time. The thing about playing in the cold we used crappy bats we didn't care about if they broke and it was a 1 day thing once or twice a year. But SSUSA took that option away from us by not allowing us to use crappy ASA bats we don't care about anymore. We are stuck using the state of the art most fragile bats on the market in order to play in the spring in the midwest where it could be 30 or 60 degrees which we have no idea what it will be like when we register to play.

So I stand by my statement in my other post, the people who stand to profit from these rules at the expense of the players are the bat manufacturers and SSUSA by selling more bats and balls..

We use propane heaters, either the large one or small one they both work great.....Just hope you play at a park that allows propane heaters in the park. I've been at a few parks that didn't allow them

yankeefan, Are you playing SSUSA when you are using your Propane Heater?

I just happen to be browsing the internet tonight. Look what I came across INTERESTING

thumbnail-7.jpg

Hopefully you can open this. It's worth opening.

Sorry Softball players. In my last post I put a thumbnail-7.jpg. It will NOT open.But I found this that will open.

www.batwarmer.com The PYROFLITE website will open. look across the top and click on

ENDORSEMENTS

Scroll down to the bottom. it is very interesting and worth your time to read.

Wow! very interesting read n statement made! Aloha, Fabe

Fabe ... He fell for the totally fake letterhead and bogus endorsement stunt by this vendor ... We've never heard of the company ... There was a pretty obvious big clue where they labeled Terry as being the CEO of ISA ... That would be Mike Caldwell ... Maybe not everything is automatically true because it's on the internet! ... UNRELATED: I missed you not being in Phoenix last month ... Hope all is well and Merry Christmas! ...

This is so easy to resolve--simply allow single sleeve bat warmers. Last winter league in the villages, my team of 12 had 8 bat warmers on the fence. It did not make any of them great hitters. Just bat security.

garyheifner, That is ALL that DBLB32 and the majority of the players are asking for.

Dave Dowell, no disrespect meant. you are a good guy, and we all know you are trying to protect the SSUSA Brand and Terry. But does that mean that the other endorsements are also fake? You said "Maybe not everything is automatically true because it's on the internet". What if it is TRUE? Sorry if we do not think the same way you do. Merry Christmas

Grandpa ... I have no way of knowing what authenticity, if any, the purported endorsements by U-trip and NSA may have ... However, I am 100% certain of the ABSOLUTE TRUTH that the SSUSA endorsement is a TOTAL FAKE ... Regardless, I do find it suspiciously curious that all three are pretty "stale", having been uploaded 9½ years ago at apparently the same time in June, 2015 ... I wouldn't wager any more than, say, a soda pop that either of the other two are legitimate ... Merry Christmas to you, too! ...

Dave, Can you please answer this question. Why is SSUSA IGNORING the wishes of the MANY players just to appease the few (National Rules Committee)? If SSUSA is worried about being sued, build it into the WAVER that you make us ALL sign before we play our first game.

We are ALL willing to work with SSUSA to come to some kind of compromise to allow us to use an SSUSA approved SOLAR Warmer. Give us some options.

Question? From what I have been told and, and in my research, it is the cold ball that causes the bat to break not the cold weather. In cold temperatures a ball becomes denser, and this causes more stress to the bat's walls increasing the chances of breaking. Is this not true???

AZTOMC, You are correct. Because of the COLD Weather and WET Fields, it does contribute to making the balls COLDER and more DENSE (We ALL know SSUSA can NOT control the wet fields or the temp). Yes, it can or will cause your bat to CRACK or BREAK. That is WHY we are asking SSUSA to allow us to use some kind of SOLAR WARMER for any game that starts under 70 degrees to HELP prevent our bats from CRACKING or BREAKING.
There is reason SSUSA or any other Association does not allow you to put Balls in a cooler. The ball becomes more DENSE, Travels FASTER, FURTHER and the ball is HARDER.
Also, as we ALL know, when we play in cold weather your body's reaction time is slower compared to playing in warm weather. Especially if you are 65 or older.
So, if you put ALL these factors in play, defensively players are put in HARMS Way. WARMING a bat does NOT contribute to this factor. ALL it does is HELP prevent your bat from CRACKING or BREAKING.
IF, SSUSA wants to allow Bat Warmers for age groups of 65 and up, just like when they added the extra infielder (Without players input) a few years ago for the 65 age group. I'm quite sure that would be acceptable to the players.

Grandpa ... Respectfully, we don't believe that an open democratic vote not going your way constitutes SSUSA "..IGNORING the wishes of the MANY players just to appease the few (National Rules Committee).." ... Your statement (presumably made accidentally) demeans the expertise and commitment to the good of the game by the "folks in the room" and ignores the depth of the discussions on the fundamental underlying issue: Does a device, active OR passive, that changes the technical specifications and/or performance of equipment comprise "altering" that equipment? ... USA Softball previously, and now SSUSA publicly, say it does ... Here are the current options until the next time the National Rules Committee convenes in late November 2025:

• Continue to enforce the prohibition against the use of any altered equipment, which includes "heated" bats; or
• Reduce the hardness of the softball so that the bat/ball combination may be more forgiving ...

If you believe that the bat/ball combination in certain environmental conditions is the problem, a reduced hardness ball is a viable option for you to support ... That can be done administratively and doesn't require an official Rules amendment ... But it could also provoke opposition by the "hitters" ... I don't personally see enough votes on the National Rules Committee to result in carving out exceptions to what sort of altered equipment might be permitted and under what circumstances ... What would be your preference for the 2025 season? ...

It happened with the USGA and R&A.... "Golf ball roll-back for everyone...effective 2028"

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2023/12/06/usga-ra-golf-ball-rollback-professionals-amateurs/

Dave... What about the Balls that are being ALTERED due to having to play in COLD WEATHER compared to playing in WARM Weather? Playing in COLD weather MIGHT be a minor change in the balls, but its enough to make a difference to be noticed by all players (Balls are HARDER). But yet, it seems SSUSA keeps saying Cold weather does not have an effect on the Balls. IF that is True, Why can't we put them in a COOLER?

You are correct, Players/Hitters would be very upset if you reduced the Hardness of the Ball. As it is now, player/Hitters look forward to playing in COOLER Weather because the Cooler Ball travels Further and Quicker. BTW, You have already done that by no longer using the Rock and now using the Baden Fire.

You asked about a PREFERENCE: Allow Bat Warmers in games that are started in under 70 degree weather, for 65 and up Divisions. Do NOT change to a worse Ball than we are already using. OR, Suggest a way to keep our bats from breaking.

Grandpa ... I'm surprised that anyone would think that playing a game in colder weather constitutes altering a softball ... We both know it doesn't ... The choices you may support consistent with the rules will NOT include SSUSA allowing teams to use altered (i.e., "heated") bats for games that begin at less than 70° ... It's not a perfect analogy, but that's somewhat like advocating to be able to use rolled, but not shaved, bats ... Altered equipment, as defined by rule to include "heated" bats and/or "chilled" softballs, is simply not going to be permitted ... Please keep this in mind: The rules allow for the use of environmentally temperature neutral equipment ... Bats may be left in the sun ... Balls may also be left in the sun or placed in the shade (excluding the shade inside a chest full of ice!), ... If you avoid other "devices", you will be rules compliant ... I'm also reasonably confident that a bat not used in cold(er) temperatures is unlikely to break ... Good luck ...

OK Guys, I have been reading all the comments from all the participants in this thread. It is obvious that the Senior Softball Staff does not care about the opinions of the players that make SSUSA the success that it is today. Nor do they care about the Safety of it's players. Even though they say they do by changing rules. They make you sign a waver before you can play. All the waver does is cover their ass. Players have DIED on the field, playing a sport they love to play. Players have gotten SERIOUSLY INJURED during a game that they love to play.
This is a site that is for players to voice their opinions, criticism and find the answers to questions they might have.
I have noticed that the SSUSA Staff very rarely answers questions. Participants have to ask for the staff to please answer the question/s for a second time. They still do not answer them. There is no legitimate reason for not allowing bat warmers, Other than some committee saying so. FACT: By using a bat warmer it WILL allow your bat to last longer. How long nobody knows. But it does last longer. If it did not allow your bat to last longer, I GUARANTEE you nobody would be using them. But SSUSA will not allow us to use them. FACT: When we play in cold weather it has an effect on the Ball. Yet SSUSA IGNORES the fact. Yet we still play. WHY? Because we love the game.
Where I live in the Eastern Region, the Average Temp in Late March is between 55 and 65 Degrees. In the early 2025 season we are now probably going to break more bats than usual. But when you are questioning the use of Cold Balls in the morning, They just IGNORE us and the question.
When you play in SSUSA Tournaments you have to sign in at the table before you can play. The Directors will ask you where you are staying? Everyone has the same opinion. They are getting a kickback. Now players are going to have a different opinion. Every time you break a bat Senior softball is getting a kick back. Just saying.
I want to wish all the softball players out there to be safe and successful seasons. UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST MY TEAM.
It is obvious that SSUSA in not going to allow Bat Warmers. Actually I am surprised this thread is still up.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. Even the SSUSA STAFF

I love you Dave, But now you are being ridiculous. The Bat Manufactures tell you NOT TO USE YOUR BAT IN WEATHER UNDER 64 degrees. If you like, I will send you their recommendation. You are right, we do not know how much longer a bat will last using it in warm weather only. But we DO know a bat will BREAK faster if used in COLD weather. That is also what the Manufactures even say.

NOBODY wants Rolled or Shaved to be legal, except the EGO Cheaters. I have integrity. I would never do either and I would not play with a teammate that does. Even though common sense tells you on the positive side, all rolling a bat does is break it in faster. On the Negative side, your bat wouldn't last very long and you will be buying another one.
How many times have you seen a player tap two bats together? How many times have you seen a player tap their bat even slightly against a pole? I see it in EVERY Tournament that I play in. The problem is, now that bat becomes an Illegal Bat. By doing either of those two, you are altering the bat and not breaking it in NATURALLY. Yet NO UMPIRE has ever removed the bat from a game. WHY??? They probably think it's a ridiculous rule.

I hope You and your Family have a Merry Christmas.

Grandpa ... Now we're getting into "messenger killing" for sport, but I don't mind (other than the redundancy issue) ... This will hopefully be my last post in this thread ...

If, as you assert: "..The Bat Manufactures tell you NOT TO USE YOUR BAT IN WEATHER UNDER 64 degrees..", then maybe you should heed their advice? ... Why should a bat warmer prohibition make any difference at all if the bat manufacturer says, "..Don't use our bats at less than 64° outside.." and you choose to do so anyway? ... In that circumstance, it's pretty easy to make a compelling argument that any adverse result to your bat is on you, not on SSUSA ...

We've informed you, and everyone following along here, precisely of the SSUSA (and USA Softball) rule regarding what constitutes thermal altering of bats ... It takes a majority of the Rules Committee to get that changed in SSUSA ... This year, one Rules Committee member (me) tried like crazy, but failed, to get completely passive devices exempted from the definition of bat warmers ... So, "heated", "rolled" and "shaved" bats all remain included in the definition of altered equipment ... Same with "chilled" softballs ... It seems like we go through something like this every year ... Last year it was the new batter's box rule ... This year it's bat warmers ... Next year it will certainly be something else! ...

Good luck this season, and I echo your wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year for you and yours ...

Thanks for the bantering Dave. To bad SSUSA and it's players can't work together to solve whatever the ongoing issue is. I do not hold a grudge and I have NO hard feelings.

Dave, I have question for you. When it is below 70 degrees. Can we put our bats in a non heated, just a regular Thermal Sock or wrap it in a Towel to try and keep it warm? I look forward to you response.

If the rubber sleeves are illegal, then are the backpacks with rubber sleeves also illegal? Is using these backpack anytime of the year a violation?

To claim that warming your bat is somehow similar to rolling or shaving a bat is simply absurd. Rolling and shaving a bat is a permanent alteration specifically done to create greater performance then what the bat was manufactured to do. Heating a bat is necessary in cold weather only, that allows the bat to perform its natural function. To place blame or shame on a player for wanting their bat to function normally, which cannot be accomplished because of weather conditions out of their control is an unrealistic rationalization. Then to suggest that a player should ignore the manufacturers warnings is just pathetic. Am I to presume that umpires will now be supplied with temperature guns and to what extent will this rule be enforced? If I keep my bat in my black bat bag that warms my bat above the ambient temperature, will I be tossed from a game? This is absurdity at its finest. There must be something in the water up in Sacramento. That place just seems to alter perceptions. If the Board can't understand they have gone a step too far...maybe teams need to take control and simply not book tournaments during cold weather as a response. Even non-profits have a bottom line.

Dave Dowell, please address the comment from Nvjimmymac posted Dec. 8. Thank you

Dave, I have gone back and read this entire thread. I assume the logic behind this is player safety, equal playing field etc. Along the lines of player safety, I beg you to make the ball a priority, so many players are telling you how dangerous it is. I am a little disappointed how little SSUSA seems to care about an issue that is so important to players. I am not saying you don't care, I am saying it 'seems' like you don't care. Please think about your paying customers. Thank you.

Dave, I started what has turned into a train wreck. All I meant to do was have a thread that allows players to have a voice on this subject. It seems to me, the players that support SSUSA and have made it as strong as it is today are overwhelming against the Bat Warmer rule. You said in one of your threads it will come up again at 2025 Committee meeting. It would probably take LESS than an hour to get the committee members on a conference call. Let them know that this is very unpopular with it's players. I have NOT read a thread form anyone that they like this rule. It is just a suggestion.

LeeM: Dec. 8 - Nvjimmymac - Are we talking about the silver lined plastic sleeve case you mount on a fence and fold up and put away when you are done? • YES
TWG: Please re-read my posts ... Your presumptions, misinterpretations and errors are a bit too much, even for an anonymous poster ... For example, I suggested that players CONFORM with the manufacturers' suggestion to NOT use a bat at less than 64° ... You got that bass-ackwards in your post ... Oh, the 2025 Rules Committee meetings were in Tucson, not Sacramento, where our water is fine ... Thanks ...
jimperry19: We "care" about a lot of things ... Principal among them lately is the elimination of the use of altered bats, including those that are only altered temporarily through being "heated" ... Bats that narrowly pass the compression testing at natural ambient temperatures frequently fail when "heated" ... USA Softball has determined, and we concur and have adopted, their definition that "heated" bats fall into the category of altered equipment ...
DBLB32: We have no problem at all with your thread origin ... The players DO have a voice in rules matters ... Many of them showed up and contributed to a variety of the individual issue discussions ... Thanks for starting it ...

Dave, if you want something to support this rule, I have hard evidence. Last year I bought one of the official bat testers used by SSUSA to make sure I was not unknowingly using an illegal bat as well as my own curiosity and boredom. I did learn a few things as a result. My experience-based real-world testing proved that a bat that can pass the 140lbs threshold at normal temperatures, will lose compression as it is heated up, even to the point of failing the test. As it cooled off, it went back to passing the test. This is why we need to follow the rules. If you are worried about breaking your good bat when it's cold, I recommend getting a cheaper cold weather bat very much as you would for taking BP. You will find that when it's cooler outside, they all perform well because the balls perform better without the effects of humidity. This string has grown so long it's hard to follow everyone's opinions.

Scott, It is good to know. BUT, If a player uses a bat warmer and it still passes the 140lbs test, WHAT'S the problem? If it fails, they take the bat. If it sits for a period of time then they retest it and it passes you get it back and can use it. If it does NOT pass they keep it.

Dave... Can you please answer the question that I posted yesterday about using a THERMAL NON-HEATED SOCK or TOWEL?

So it seems that the team(s) that used portable propane heaters were the culprits in this sweeping change for bat warmers being eliminated across the board.
I just want to say thanks for nothing in making this a sweeping issue for all by the actions of the few.
How about SSUSA changing the rules to eliminate such devices and considering the below 65 degree rule for warmers to be used to save our investments.

DBLB, it seems to me that it would be too hard to police; the cost/benefit equation wouldn't be positive. You would need to test it immediately after it was taken out of the warmer and before it's used.

Scott, Last year during Worlds our teams bats were tested TWICE. I was at the table with my Bat still in my warmer. My bat has had over 700 swings on it. I took it out of the warmer in front of the testers and handed it to them. My bat passed with 190lbs compression. Not one of our teams bats failed. The lowest test result was 175lbs. I did had one of those. They tested 3 of my bats. The only bats of mine they did not test were the ones still in their wrapper.
Here is are a couple questions for you. Why do they test bats AFTER you use it? What if it failed testing before the game?
They are testing randomly. That is not beneficial or accurate to find the results they are looking for. Every bat should be tested before the teams first game. I wonder how many bats would have been deemed illegal if they tested them ALL

Mikelmart. That is what I have been asking. That is ALL we are asking for. Make the use of a propane heater a SUSPENDABLE offense.

Just was told last night that if you change the grip on a bat and use bat tape/athletic tape it’s considered alternating the bat. Is that true? The person also said that if you add one of those rubber grips on the handle it’s also considered alternating it. These 2 things can’t be considered alternating a bat.

NYGNYY: From the SSUSA rule book: “Replacing a grip with another legal grip is not considered altering the bat.” You can change the tape as long as you use two or fewer layers. You can add a manufactured cone grip (those types specifically allowed in the rule book) but cannot use tape alone to construct a cone grip. Hope that clears up the confusion on those topics. Meanwhile, as Scott Harder says, there is solid evidence that heating a bat changes its performance. It gives the batter more velocity and distance when he hits the ball. That is why USA Softball and NFHS do not allow bat warmers.

Donna, I live in your region. You are a Umpire in Chief, you just follow the rule that are set in front of you. We all do. By voicing or opinions that is how we get rules changed.
WE would like it if you could show proof that a heated Bat produces the ball to have more VELOCITY and DISTANCE.

I just typed in: What does a Bat Warmer do?

This is what the answer was. This is a QUOTE

"Helps preventing bat cracking and denting! Keeps bat at manufactures recommended Temperature!
Denting was for Metal Bats.

I also typed in: Does a heated bat make the ball travel further

This is what the answer was. This is a QUOTE

"No, there isn't scientific evidence that heating a bat makes the ball travel further"

A cold BALL can travel Faster and further. Problem is, a heated bat cannot break a ball. But a COLD BALL can break a Bat if the Bat is not at manufactures recommended Temperature.

Yes, there are actual tests that show that a bat’s compression changes when the bat is heated, and that heating the bat will make it perform better. Testing is why ASA Softball (now USA) reinstated its bat warmer ban after letting warmers be used for two years. Their 2012 rule book had a sentence that said “science has proven” it….. (I am moving on, as I prefer to read the message board rather than become a part of it. Besides, Dave Dowell is much better that this than I am!)

Donna, Again your comment does not hold water. I looked up "Has ASA tested bats that have used Bat Warmers".

I pasted this from the website.

This what ASA says; These are quotes

No, the ASA (now known as USA Softball) does not specifically test bats that have used a bat warmer; their certification process focuses solely on the bat's construction and performance characteristics, not external factors like warming devices.

This is what it also says: Another quote

(Many times you would see people using bat warmers when it was in the 70-80 degree range.) After testing, ASA decided to outlaw bat warmers. There is a misconception that bats break because the bat gets cold. Testing shows that it is the ball compression increasing and the ball getting "harder" causes the bats to break.

When it says 70-80 degrees, that's outside before using a Bat Warmer. We as players already understand that if you use bat warmer at that temp it will get too soft to be legal. That's why we are just asking for Bar warmers be legal as long as it is under 70 degrees.

They are talking about the Balls getting HARDER in the COLD. That's been our point from the beginning. ASA just VERIFIED it for us. Since you are saying it is based on ASA results and you are incorrect CHECKMATE

CLOSING COMMENT • Bat warmers became an issue of interest when multiple teams in Phoenix deployed propane heaters in their dugouts, in the immediate proximity of their team's bats ... Other teams, predictably, complained about the heaters, asking if they were legal ... The SSUSA Rulebook did not specifically address bat warmers ... When the SSUSA Rulebook is silent on an issue, we default to the USA (formerly ASA) Softball Rulebook for guidance ... Bat warmers are NOT approved by USA Softball and, by extension not by SSUSA either, because they change the technical specifications and performance of a bat ... That change, even if only temporary, meets the definition of altered equipment ... We encourage you to use your bats consistent with the manufacturers' recommendations, including not using them below the stated minimum temperatures they suggest ...

The formal action at the 2024 National Rules Committee simply published to the SSUSA Rulebook the rule that was already in existence, but largely unknown to our membership (including many players, managers, umpires and directors) ... The recent action by the Rules Committee did NOT change the rule on bat warmers being prohibited, but it DID properly bring it to the attention of the SSUSA membership by eliminating the extra step of looking to the USA Softball Rulebook to find it ...

Thanks Dave. A lot of us have always known the bat warmers were not legal. But we also know that that was ONE of the rules that's in the rule book that was NOT enforced. The assholes that used propane heaters wrecked it for everybody. They should be suspended for life.

Thanks again Dave

OK-we choose not to sacrifice a $240 bat. How about some suggestions about what to use????

gary, Maybe we should turn SSUSA into a WOODEN BAT LEAGUE. Bats are 100's cheaper. They don't break as fast.

That's funny stuff ... Gary, you're eligible for the 80's division ... When's the last time you broke a bat other than by running over it accidentally with your golf cart in Florida? [grins] ... Not Dave: Wood bats are OK by us ... We had a "wood bat game" at the Annual Convention in Tucson last week and it was a blast! ... Knock yourself out! ... Merry Christmas everyone! ...