https://www.vspdirect.com/softball/welcome?utm_source=softball&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=partner

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 2 members: Mingo88, TABLE SETTER 11; 98 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: 4 Game or 5 Game Guarantee??

Posted Discussion
Jan. 17, 2023
Rangview85
17 posts
4 Game or 5 Game Guarantee??
Hey there.....Looking at future tournaments I have noticed they say "4 Game Guarantee"

Are brackets changing from three game guarantee to double elimination style?

Thanks in advance!!
Jan. 17, 2023
wdodge22
Men's 55
148 posts
4 Game Guarantee - 2 game pool play, double elimination
5 Game Guarantee - 2 game pool play, 3 game modified double elimination

Hope this helps.

Jan. 18, 2023
Rangview85
17 posts
Nope, that didn't help...I know what 4 game and 5 game guarantee means.

In years past, all the TOC tournaments have been 5 game guarantees, but on the web page of the tournaments, it says 4 game guarantee. Curious if this is what SSUSA is going to??
Jan. 18, 2023
domer
36 posts
Less games same cost?
Jan. 18, 2023
FTP
Men's 50
15 posts
4 game guarantee for a 3 day tournament. Won't be participating in that.
Jan. 18, 2023
NYGNYY
204 posts
It looks like all TOCís are 4 game guarantees. Is that true? Was this mentioned beforehand on this board? Thanks.
Jan. 19, 2023
Wizard of Oz
Men's 50
16 posts
Sounds about right Domer..... But they will tell you it's not about the money. "4 game guarantee for a 3 day tournament. Won't be participating in that" I agree with you FTP..... Just stupid.
Jan. 19, 2023
Hank Heffner
9 posts
If you win your first game in bracket play or your first game in losers bracket it does not matter the 3 game guarantee does not affect you.In a 16 team bracket it only effects 4 teams.
Jan. 20, 2023
Rangview85
17 posts
Neither confirmed or denied as of yet.....
Jan. 20, 2023
christom10
Men's 55
14 posts
Can SSUSA clarify when the decision was made, or considered, to make tournaments a 4GG vs 5GG and provide logic on this decision. I see that it was not an item on the 2023 Rules Committee meeting.
Jan. 20, 2023
TimMcElroy
918 posts
In addition to working at SSUSA hosted events, I also host a number of my own tournaments each year. Costs are up for nearly everything and change of some kind is required to remain profitable. I'm speaking for myself here but suspect SSUSA is experiencing something similar.

Park rental costs, travel costs, ball costs, awards costs, shipping costs, staff labor costs- Most of these increased AFTER 2022 entry fees were posted. I had to eat the diminished margins (and sometimes outright losses on tournaments).

It's a good bet that SSUSA's move from 5gg to 4gg had as much to do with getting a handle on expenses as anything else. Looking at the softball landscape it appears that SSUSA isn't alone on this one. I've seen other Associations offer fewer games, increased entry fees or both for 2023.

Jan. 20, 2023
MurrayW
Men's 65
214 posts
So without the 5gg, will SSUSA be able to move into the modern times and use software that updates the scores in near real-time? The reasoning before has been that no software handles teams that go 0-2 in brackets.
Jan. 20, 2023
AJC
Men's 60
215 posts
Personally i think going to a 4 gg from the usual 5 gg will not be well received. As you stated Tim, the cost to fly, hotel costs and rental cars, food have all gone up. It can make the difference for teams to attend or not. Raise the fees to whats necessary and teams will make up their mind whether to attend or not.
Jan. 21, 2023
wdodge22
Men's 55
148 posts
I know I don't speak for all, but I would rather see the larger TOC tournaments stay at 5 GG and pay $75 to $100 more per event. This also makes a 4 day Worlds with 4 GG very unappealing.

There is some savings to SSUSA in 4GG, but there might be some hidden costs to players and SSUSA...

Under this new scenario, I know that most of my players will book a hotel for Thursday ( if we are playing early Friday ) and Friday nights, and get Saturday night only if we are playing Sunday morning or playing late Saturday afternoon.

Those that get AIRBNB will now only book Thursday and Friday because there is a high probability if going 0 and 2 in bracket play under 4 GG, that team would be done by 11:00 or 12:00.

1. Reduced concessions from municipalities due to reduced revenue from food and hotel taxes.
2. Reduced revenue due to lower attendance for certain events
3. Higher hotel rates for the players as the hotels will be getting fewer nights per discount block so they will be less inclined to offer a larger discount.
4. Hotels potentially requiring 2 or 3 night minimum to get the discount

This my opinion and some back of the napkin economic analysis, not fact. But it is also some things I have observed in booking conferences for my clients.

Bill Dodge
Manager
California Coast Plumbers/Horn 55

Jan. 21, 2023
Webbie25
Men's 65
2379 posts
Wow, have we gotten just a little bit spoiled by SSUSA? I want to see a show of hands.......how many tournaments in the past, you know , all the non-senior tournaments, did you ever have a 5 game guarantee? Or a 4 game guarantee.....or even a three game guarantee. You could travel across the country and go 'oh and two and barbeque'. Anybody that actually has their eyes open are seeing the big increases in the cost of everything. Why would a softball tournament and their expenses be any different? We are in a whole different world now than we knew when we were younger. I think we need to give SSUSA some slack as they figure out how bad it is going to be with actual expenses from tournaments after they close the book on them. Personally, I would like to see the 5 game guarantee remain, but I do not like the 2 game round robin and the potential for a team to lose 2 bracket games and come back and win the tournament, as Cal Energy almost did in the 65 M+ bracket last year in World's. Kudo's to them for regrouping, but they should have been going home. So, my vote goes for 5 games with 3 pool games and let's wait for a year and hope prices stabilize before we complain too much.
Jan. 22, 2023
TimMcElroy
918 posts
wdodge22- My understanding is that the SSUSA World Championships will continue on as a 5gg event.
Jan. 22, 2023
Alamo
27 posts
We need a double elimination tournament just like all the other age divisions (75' AAA). Our team doesn't want to go back to worlds' in vegas.
Jan. 22, 2023
Rob64
Men's 50
189 posts
Sounds like there are some of teams that don't plan on winning @ least 1 game so they're complaining about being eliminated and not getting in a fifth game and can't afford to play because they're golf budget is to expensive!
Jan. 22, 2023
Rob64
Men's 50
189 posts
Once again the original question still hasn't been answered.
Jan. 22, 2023
TimMcElroy
918 posts
Original question-
Are brackets changing from three game guarantee to double elimination style?
Answer- Yes. In a 4gg event, the standard format would be 2 seed games with teams advancing to a double elimination bracket.
Jan. 22, 2023
AJC
Men's 60
215 posts
Have we gotten used to 5gg, yes. Spoiled, no.
Most all of the tournaments we went to in the past were 2gg ( DE ) but those were normally played in 1 day and did not require flights, 3 nights of hotels, 4 days of car rentals, 2 days off of work. All im saying if necessary, raise the entry fee. We are already paying a lot more for the same game, now were going to pay a lot more for less ? This is not to bash SSUSA, im a big fan of theirs and believe they do a very good job in putting tournaments together for all of us to play. The only thing in the past that id like to have done better is to have scores posted from tournaments, but have never posted that as others have and nothing has changed.

Hopefully if this change is going to happen for smaller brackets they can fit them in in 2 days instead of dragging them out over 3 days.

Rob, theres a big difference in complaining vs. voicing there personal view.
Jan. 22, 2023
Rob64
Men's 50
189 posts
Webbie25 show of hands answer every SSUSA tournament I've played in were 2 seeding then double elimination never 2 and barbeque. Where are the 2 and barbeque?
Jan. 22, 2023
Rob64
Men's 50
189 posts
Sorry Webbie I misunderstood your 2 and out, I should have reread before commenting.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Email: info@SeniorSoftball.com
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12
Sacramento, CA 95827
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts international softball tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners