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Discussion: Player awarded a base

Posted Discussion
July 22, 2022
scrub21
1 posts
Player awarded a base
How many bases is a runner on first base awarded when there is a fly ball hit to the shortstop, the runner on first goes halfway between first and second base. The shortstop attempts the throw the runner out going back to first but throws the ball into deadball territory. Is the runner allowed third base or second base.
July 22, 2022
B.J.
1023 posts
scrub.. normally you would use the SSUSA rule I posted below .. in the SSUSA rule book they do not really give an explanation of this play and I believe they follow the USA rule .. on your scenario the runner has not legally tagged up after first touch/catch and must go back and touch 1st base which counts as 1 base so after tagging up he would be awarded 2nd base..

SSUSA RULE..
8.4(10) • WHEN RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE
D. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked. EFFECT: All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hands. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is
based on the lead runner.

USA RULE..
Section 5. RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.

G. When the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked:
EFFECT: All runners shall be awarded two bases. The award shall be governed
by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hand. Runners must
return to touch a base missed or a base left too soon.
July 23, 2022
Donna McGuire
45 posts
It doesn’t matter what direction the runner is going. Even though he needs to tag first base (or be called out on appeal), he is awarded two bases from the time the ball left the fielder’s hand. In this case, he is awarded third base because he already is past first base. (Yes, this is the USA rule, too.) If he fails to retouch first base, the defense may appeal him for leaving the base too soon.
July 23, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2048 posts
I agree with Donna.
July 23, 2022
B.J.
1023 posts
Donna Thx.. my mistake .. senior moment .. lol .. I was thinking of U-trip rule.. that's what happens when you umpire to many different org.s
July 23, 2022
stick8
1972 posts
Donna is correct. The easy way to think of this is:
1) a throw from the outfield that goes out of play-runners get two bases from the time of the throw
2) a throw from the infield that goes out of play-runners get two bases from the time of the pitch.
In this scenario the runner that was on first is awarded third. But in this case he must retouch first or else he’s out if the defense appeals.
July 25, 2022
DJ12
8 posts
I read this rule as two bases, however, I believe the intent is two bases from where they started. Only second base would be awarded.
July 25, 2022
Crusher23
Men's 55
53 posts
I love this question because it happened to my team in league play the other night and the result was that the playy was dead obviously because the ball was thrown out of play, and runner on first was awarded third base.

I understand the rule, but I do have a question about what Donna stated in that "If he fails to retouch first base, the defense may appeal him for leaving the base too soon." So essentially, any time that a runner is caught off first base like this all you have to do is to throw the ball out of play before the runner can tag up - the runner will then be awarded two bases, and you as the defense can simply appeal that the runner did not tag up and they will be called out.

Remember, once the ball is out of play the runner cannot tag up, the play is dead. So an astute defense can actually prevent the runner from tagging up and then appeal him for an out. You as the runner can no longer undo your action of not tagging up at this point, the play is dead - you had to do it while the play was live. You as the runner are now screwed.
July 25, 2022
B.J.
1023 posts
crusher.. you are correct it is a dead ball if the ball is thrown out of play .. but once the umpire awards bases the runner can go back and tag up and then proceed to the awarded base
July 26, 2022
Donna McGuire
45 posts
Posters in this thread have referenced two different aspects of the rules. The basic overthrow rule for a ball that goes out of play is on page 49 of the rule book under 8.4(10) D. It is the one B.J. quoted:
“When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked: EFFECT: All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hands. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the lead runner.”
Note that this rule does not mention whether an outfielder or infielder made the throw.
Stick8, you quoted a rule a little further down that deals with a thrown ball that hits a runner or umpire and then goes out of play. That is in section E. The first part of that rule notes that the “ball is dead, and all runners are awarded two bases.” Subsection 1 adds details about whether the throw came from an infielder or outfielder. For an infielder, the award of bases is “governed by the position of each runner at the time the pitch was made; however, if all runners, including the batter-runner, have advanced at least one base when the infielder makes the wild throw, on the first play after a pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made.”
Umpires should glance at all runners as a throw is being made so that the proper rule can be enforced if the thrown ball goes out of play.
In the case cited at the start of this thread, the runner should be awarded third base.
July 26, 2022
stick8
1972 posts
Crusher I had a play just last week like what was described. Runner on first, no outs. Batter hits a line drive at the pitcher who made a nice catch. Runner was caught off base and was a dead duck. Pitchers throw to first was wild and went under a fence—out of play. Dead ball, runner gets third. That runner did go back and touch first and then went to second and to third. Totally legal.
July 31, 2022
stick8
1972 posts
Crusher when you say tthat once the ball is out of play the runner cannot tag up, the ball is dead, I dont believe that’s accurate. I think you meant that when the umpire calls time and kills the play a runner cannot go back and tag up.

Example: Player A hits a gapper and he legs out a triple but he misses second base. The throw comes in to second, player B secures it and the ump calls time. Here you cannot go back and touch second.
Same play but if player B tries to throw you out at third and the throw goes out of play the ump will award you home. Here it is legal to retouch second.
BJ and/or Donna can correct me if I’m mistaken.
Aug. 1, 2022
Crusher23
Men's 55
53 posts
You are probably right Stick. My assumption is that as soon as the ball goes out of play that it is a dead ball and that time is obviously out. automatically since play is halted due to a dead ball. So, is what you're saying is that time still is NOT out when the ball goes dead, and that time still has to be called even though we have a dead ball situation?
Aug. 2, 2022
stick8
1972 posts
Your assumption is technically correct Crusher. Had a play last night. Runner on 1st, one out. Batter gets base hit to left center. Runner on first rounds second and heads to third. Throw to third skips by third baseman into third base dugout. I call “dead ball” runner at third scores and batter-runner gets third. Even though the defense can’t try to get an out it’s plausible to say time is out but the play isn’t complete until the runner(s) go to the bases they are awarded as a result of the dead ball. Personally I don’t call “time” on a play like that and I don’t know any other umps that would. But there may some that do.
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