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Discussion: Player ranking

Posted Discussion
June 28, 2022
Mikelmart
125 posts
Player ranking
In response to the email yesterday I do have a question.
If a player is on a 65 AAA team and plays on a 55AAA team is he now considered a 65 major+ player after two tournaments?
June 29, 2022
mck71
289 posts
I believe you are looking for Dave or Tim to confirm Mike but yes, that is correct. Once you play "down" in 2 tournaments, you are accepting that teams rating for that year. 55AAA Rating Index is the same as 65M+ so to continue to play 55AAA, you would only be able to play on a 65M team as a chip or a 65M+ team but you would NOT be able to play 65AAA unless you stopped playing for the 55 team and stayed at the 65 age group (though Dave, Tim or call Home Office would have to confirm that IF you already played 2 tourneys this year at 55AAA, can you even play at 65AAA at any point until this "year" is completed (after Vegas))?
June 29, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
If you have a snow bird card how do theses new rules apply if anyone knows ? Do theses rules take affect immediately or are you clawing back to the start of the year ? If they are clawing back to the start of the year I think its highly unfair .
June 29, 2022
mck71
289 posts
I am confused G, what "new rules" are you referencing?

I believe SSUSA has used the same rules for a while now, they use the Rating Index as a team guide and IF you played at least 2 tournaments with the same team in a calendar year then you accept the Rating of that team, not complicated.

It does get a bit confusing when you CAN play down (50 - 40, 55 - 50, 60 - 55, etc) because the Rating Index changes. AAA in 40 is RI of 8, it's 7 in 50's, 6 in 55 and 5 in 60's. The easiest way I can remember it is you CAN'T PLAY DOWN 2 LEVELS from your HIGHEST Rating, pretty easy once you know what that is (call SSUSA Home Office during West Coast hrs and ask for your history). EX. if you are a 55M player, you are a RI of 7 so you can't play 60AAA at a RI of 5 or if you are a 60M player, RI of 6, you could still play at 65M but since that is a RI of 5, you would count as 1 or the 3 higher rated players allowed but you can't play 65AAA (RI of 4).

Hope this helps!
June 30, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
Mck71. - so here is the unfair rule if I hear you correctly. So if you are a player who is rated as a 65 major player and lets just say that player thinks he is a major playerstill but he really showed be playing 65 aaa but he rides the coat tails of the team who carry him along . If he goes and plays down to 60 AAA he is now a MAJOR PLUS 70 player going into 70 bracket -WTF Are you kidding me ? Does that make any scene ? That player is screwed. He will now have to wait for his appeal for month as he is getting older quickly. This is ridiculous - You have an OLDER PLAYER playing with younger guys and let me repeat that - you have an OLDER PLAYER going to play with younger guys and now that player is going to get PENALIZED . That player could be as much as 9 years older - THIS IS WRONG !!! SSUSA needs to work on other issues then dream up this BS.
June 30, 2022
Mikelmart
125 posts
I'm going to chime in before hearing from Dave or Tim.
Why penalize a team or players if someone decides to play DOWN in an age group or even two by increasing their player rating?
If someone is rated a certain rating then that rating should not change regardless.
If a player is 69 years old on a 65 team and plays on a 60's team where the youngest player could possibly be 59 why jeopardize his rating if he plays two tournaments with a 60's team being possibly 10 years older than the youngest player. That's there choice and the choice of the team.
I know the new rule states that only three such players would be affected per scenario but why even have the rule at all?
This could possibly hamstring teams that find it difficult to field teams due to a lack of players due to geographical limitations, injuries, COVID, other personal commitments and even death, thus limiting the amount of teams per tournament'
What circumstances brought this about?
Why this rule change now to be implemented in 2023 and not at the annual meeting where players and managers can be present to discuss the new change?
June 30, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
G MAN ... Let's get this out of the way up front: Please call the Sacramento Home Office @ (916) 326.5303 between 9:00 AM and 4:00 PM PDT and ask to speak to an eligibility specialist (recommend Anthony) ... Be prepared to discuss YOUR circumstances specifically, including who you are, and the actual team(s) that are in the mix for your player history and future consideration ...

You have apparently not considered, or been advised about, the effect that matriculating to the next age group has for your player experience rating history and your options ... That lack of understanding results in your misguided belief that our eligibility rules and processes, designed to protect the lesser skill rated teams, are somehow to be characterized as BS ... That is categorically untrue ... You may NOT "play down" more than ONE Rating Index (R/I) level ... That chart is available here and was in the player email that was sent ... Simply stated, choose wisely when deciding to play down, because the R/I analysis is made across age divisions and applied to your choices ...

As for your original question regarding being a "Snowbird Card" holder, that's irrelevant to your second inquiry ... Snowbird status allows a player to participate with teams in his native state and bordering states AND teams based in the specific snowbird state, but NOT it's bordering states, so long as he is otherwise eligible as to age and rating experience history ... Nothing more and nothing less ...

June 30, 2022
HSquared
Men's 60
115 posts
COMMENTARY:

I struggle terribly with the idea of how a “full team” of Major players, playing down to AAA (straight across R/I) is equitable, (i.e., protecting the lesser skill rated teams).

I have always felt that “skill always trumps age”.
June 30, 2022
bond_171513
Men's 55
77 posts
HSquared - case in point - SoCal Championships - 55M team goes undefeated and wins 50AAA, yes there was only 7 teams, but it helps prove the point.
June 30, 2022
mck71
289 posts
Mike - had to go back and read the email again but I BELIEVE this is NOT a new rule, what the email says is that it was NOT ENFORCED the past 2 yrs due to COVID and short staff (Dave or Tim will correct me if I am wrong).

So my belief is (and as stated by G), that say your team has 12 players, not all 12 are equal; some are better hitters, some are better fielders, some can run, some can't but all 12 were necessary to win the tournament. So player 12 (who doesn't even play the field on the weekend, maybe runs mostly?) is Major same and Player 1, is that fair, probably not but how else are they supposed to figure it out? In this case, I would do what Dave says ALL THE TIME, "Please call the Sacramento Home Office @ (916) 326.5303 between 9:00 AM and 4:00 PM PDT and ask to speak to an eligibility specialist" (thx Dave, easier to copy and paste! lol)

H Sq and bond - we have done that before, we just didn't have enough guys who were 55 so we picked up a few 50 yr olds (2) and played 50AAA the whole year! I believe skill wise we were pretty good but we didn't win 1 tourney that year but we also didn't get blown out either, guess it depends on the team?

Bottom line, it's THEIR rules so you have 2 choices; play by their rules or don't play (not trying to be a d#ck about it, I agree it isn't fair to everyone but it's what has been established before I started playing so I roll with it!)

Wishing everyone a happy 4th of July weekend!!!
July 2, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
Dave Dowell - Thanks for your responce -

I still have a problem because I really dont understand why SSUSA rule punishing an older player for playing down . Why would you want to take an older player who is 10 years older and maybe in some cases even older and wants to play down 10 years and then turn around an PUNISH that player by putting him into a HIGHER bracket that he is not qualified to play in ? Just asking. lol G
July 2, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Gerard ... You're probably not going to see this issue the same way SSUSA does so long as you hold to the misconception that we are somehow punishing you for your voluntary choices of team(s) and age groups ... We don't have a dog in this fight, but from the perspective of "the other guys" you play against who are your age, here's the flip side of that same coin we hear almost every time: "If he's good enough to play down with THOSE GUYS, then he shouldn't be complaining about being tagged with their rating index ... No one is making him play there!" ...

Those are the opposite extremes, with both positions being driven by a subjective analysis that SSUSA is NOT going to be interested in arbitrating on a case by case basis ... Respectfully, if a player is going to "play down", one of the factors they must consider, and choose accordingly, is whether or not they will be compliant with the "one index rating spread" as it relates to all teams they desire to play with, regardless of age and/or rating ...
July 2, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
Dave, You blew my Top Secret cover lol -

Re: Penalizing Older Players for playing down !

I always enjoy many of your responses but not all - Yes you are correct I don't see eye to eye on this issue but hear me out.

There will always be someone crying about something - just come to a tournament and listen to the same people complaining - It gets old quickly.

Here is my Example - An older player and let's say he is 70 , He can't see as well, he can't run as well, he can't catch as well, he can't throw as well and he does not have the power he use to have when hitting. I would think a majority of older players will agree with what I just wrote.

I think we can ALL agree with theses deteriorating athletic issues especially older players 70 plus and maybe even younger players too.

Even SSUSA feels this way,
For example: during the TOC skills games, they make the 70 year old guys stand on the pitchers mound during the Home Run contest. Why is that ? Because those players have lost their edge against younger players. SSUSA does not make a player stand further back in a Home Run contest but just the opposite. You must also remember you also have the Best teams who have qualified in the country along with many of the Best players.

SSUSA does not pick one 70 year old player during the skills game and tells him he has to stand at Home Plate during the contest while you have other players hitting from the pitchers mound. Yes, this is true. lol
Remember the TOC has the BEST teams in the country at this tournament with many of the best players and they are now compromising.

ITS VERY SIMPLE IN MY OPINION - ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD POLICY TO ACCOMMODATE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE ALWAYS COMPLAINING ABOUT PLAYERS PLAYING DOWN.

YOU CAN NOT GENERALIZE THIS RULE ESPECIALLY FOR OLDER PLAYERS -You are PENALIZING older players !!!

Maybe in being fair to everyone there should be an age cut off date so those older players are not elevated to a higher bracket. / COMPROMISE !

To All SSUSA players - Have a Great 4th of July weekend and be safe. Be proud of this Great Country and Never Give Up . G
July 2, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
G MAN ... You're right: It seems someone always complains ... This time it's you ... SSUSA isn't penalizing anyone ... You feel that way because you are intent on ignoring, and asking us to so as well, the "One Rating Level Rule" limitation when playing on multiple teams in multiple age groups ...

I'm not sure why you believe the TOC skills competitions have anything to do with this (they don't), since the TOC is a previous year exhibition tournament and the skills competitions are individual, not team competitions ... SSUSA will be enforcing the rule prospectively, and your only recourse will be to advocate for a formal rules committee change ... The Committee meets at the SSUSA Annual Convention in late November ... In the interim, please choose wisely in making your team affiliation choices ... Your choices will have pre-defined consequences ...

July 3, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
Bond 171513 & HSquared - guys I agree with you and thats called SAND BAGGING which happens a lot in ISSA. We are speaking about one player who has played on the same team for a few years not one tournament . Lets not forget SSUSA allowed other players to help other teams during COVID which also helped SSUSA have more teams in a tournament. IT WORKS BOTH WAYS ! To now say starting today we are enforcing the rules and its our way or the highway is wrong. I Would like to see SSUSA look at the past history of the players and see a normal pattern of play with the same team they played down for and then say at the end of 2022 we are now going to enforce playing down 2 levels with theses penaties . Its very simple . lol
July 3, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
G MAN ... You've begun the day 0-4 at the plate ... Who said anything about [1] "..starting today.." or [2] "..our way or the highway.."? ... Why do you believe [3] there is a "..new rule.." involved here? (there's not) ... And lastly, why do you [4] presume that SSUSA hasn't evaluated multiple players who may be similarly situated as you? (they have) ... Each of those statements is wrong and the result of the all-too-often "READY! FIRE! AIM! ... OOOPPPSSS!" approach to analysis focused only on the selfish interests of the person making them ... SSUSA has decided, except in the most egregious cases, that some of the emergency COVID exception will be phased out and that affected players will be "grandfathered" on their current roster(s) for the balance of the 2022 Season ... Consistent and rules-compliant enforcement of the existing "One Rating Index Spread" roster rules will commence with the start of the 2023 Season in November ... Hopefully, that clarifies things for you a bit and ends this nonsense of thinking you're being singled out and penalized (you're not) ... Good luck ...

July 3, 2022
TimMcElroy
865 posts
Dave's done a fine job of explaining SSUSA's position (past, present and future) on roster allowances, so there's no need for me to comment on that.

This statement rubs me the wrong way though- "Lets not forget SSUSA allowed other players to help other teams during COVID which also helped SSUSA have more teams in a tournament"

COVID exception polices had NOTHING to do with getting more teams into a tournament and EVERYTHING to do with the handling of teams that had actual COVID issues. Any rosters exceptions made were for the sole intent of avoiding 11th hour withdrawals by teams and complete disruption to schedules. SSUSA was very specific as to when an exception player would be allowed and what their rating could or could not be.

I find it comical that anyone would complain about SSUSA clarifying its position on next season's rosters 4 months before this season comes to an end. For gosh sakes, you can look at any tournament held by the other guys and find teams playing a level or two below their SSUSA rating- There were individuals approved to play in Salem last week that had already won a "World Champion" ringlet this season at a higher level. Now they've got another.

July 3, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
Dave - I misunderstood this policy won't take affect until 2023 - Sorry for all the confusion. I only used myself as an example because the scenarios were easy for me to explain. I get it 2023 -Thanks

Tim- I was not thinking 4 months a head but quite the contrary.

I have no idea what I am doing next week because I have a 13 year old atheltic son and that's my priority. Now that could be construed as comical. Thanks for your input anyway. G
July 5, 2022
MurrayW
Men's 65
203 posts
I'm not really sure why this is being called a "punishment". If the player is good enough to play down at a certain level then why shouldn't he carry that rating index with him? If he is not good enough, why is he playing at that lower level where he can't compete?
July 5, 2022
G MAN
Men's 55
35 posts
MurrayW - I think you have it wrong but then again its all very confusing to me. If you are a 55 major player for example and you go play 40 AAA then you are now rated 60 Major plus player. Is that what your saying ?
July 5, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
MurrayW ... This is really quite simple, despite the cyclical redundancy of this thread: Any player who plays for a younger and/or higher rated team in multiple events (i.e., more than just one pre-approved "exemption" appearance) will accrue the highest rating index number of the team(s) involved ... That highest number will be the benchmark for the player's future team roster eligibility in applying the "one index rating spread" criteria regardless of his native age group and prior history ...
July 5, 2022
Mikelmart
125 posts
So if a player plays in two tournaments in 2023 at a lower age group and gets the next higher rating does that rating carry over into his/her 2024 rating?
July 5, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
YES ... For two Seasons, unless the player is 70+ or more senior, than it's in play for only one Season ...
July 5, 2022
MurrayW
Men's 65
203 posts
G Man, yes, that is exactly what I am saying. If you are a 55 Major player you don't need to play 40 AAA, you would already be considered Major Plus at 60. In my opinion, SSUSA has it right with this rule. There is at least a rating difference in the level of play between two age groups (maybe with the exception of 50 to 55). Every 5 years there is a definite falloff in ability. Someone who is 60 but is good enough to play for a 55 Major team should be Major Plus in 60 and over.
July 6, 2022
titanhd
Men's 60
620 posts
OK Dave.Our team was bumped to Major Plus due to our finish at the Worlds. We sucsessfully Appealed and the team moved back and allowed to Play Major. Should all Player ratings on our Team now be Major per the appeal? Full transaparency> I called the office and was told that my rating is M+ for 2 years. Which I understand as per normal but how does this relate per successful appeal of bump up?

Thanks
July 6, 2022
HSquared
Men's 60
115 posts
titahd.. It's been noted in the pink priority header labelled "TEAM RATINGS • Guidelines & Procedures (Rev: 12/15/2015)"...

that "Major-Plus players may only play on Major or Major-Plus teams in the same age division, unless it is determined that the player is not a "key" or "impact" player..... These exceptions are decided on an individual basis and approved in writing by the association."

Are you that "impact" or "key" player?

I have no idea how that is determined... Just sayin'
July 7, 2022
neck10
711 posts
Can you play upone tournement & not be effected on your rating say if you are 60 major player & you play one tourney with a 60 major plus team will that effect your rating and the tourney is a small one???????
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