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Discussion: Batting out of order

Posted Discussion
March 26, 2022
Nvjimmymac
20 posts
Batting out of order
A pinch runner who is going to bat soon is put in to run. As luck would have it he winds up on third base with one out. A fly ball is hit to left field and caught; two outs. The man on third is now up. Can he now be replaced with a pinch runner so that he may bat or is he out because he is stuck on third base?
March 26, 2022
lowprofile
64 posts
8.5(4) ē COURTESY RUNNER COMING TO BAT WHILE ON BASE
A courtesy runner on base when it is his turn to bat will be declared out. The
runner will be removed from the base and a second courtesy runner cannot be
substituted.

Think that sums it up
March 26, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
Yes, your team actually did that in St. George, and the umpire called him OUT correctly, despite the rather spirited attempt to argue an alternative ruling ... The third out of the inning (2nd out was the caught fly ball) occurs when the courtesy runner is forced to abandon third base in order to bat in his required proper position in the batting order ... That courtesy runner is the third out, but he DOES lead off their next inning, unless this was a last inning game-ending failure to think things through in advance ...

March 26, 2022
Enviro-Vac
Men's 65
479 posts
Could the runner not be replaced by a substitute player who is on the official lineup card but has not yet entered the game - if available?
March 26, 2022
titanhd
Men's 60
632 posts
Respectfully disagree .Wouldn't Technically the batting order HITTER is the recorded out? The out was because he could not hit in his batting order position. Not because he was a courtesy runner. Also Not sure why he could be the first batter of the next inning when in fact "technically" he was the last (batter) out of the previous inning.
March 27, 2022
B.J.
1080 posts
Enviro-Vac.. even if the substitute was allowed (which it isn't) he would be taking the place of "that" batter in the line up who is standing on 3rd base and still not able to come to bat
March 27, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
Rulebook ß8.5(4) ē COURTESY RUNNER COMING TO BAT WHILE ON BASE
A courtesy runner on base when it is his turn to bat will be declared out. The runner will be removed from the base and a second courtesy runner cannot be substituted. Substitution for the original player will not prevent this out. The courtesy runner called out does not lose his turn at bat. EFFECTS: [1] The out occurs at the base the courtesy runner abandons to take his required turn at bat, unless it is the third out; and [2] The courtesy runner retired for the third out will be the first batter of the teamís next half-inning at bat.
__________

titandh ... He was NOT the last (batter) out of the previous inning, and his position in the batting order was not used ... He was out for the baserunning blunder, a lot like a runner getting picked off with two outs in baseball ... The guy at bat at that moment also leads off the next inning ...

Enviro-Vac ... Our position is NO, based on the language of the rule ... It was also NOT a part of the hypothetical proposed by Nvjimmymac ...

March 27, 2022
Q19
Men's 60
81 posts
Can't you just substitute him in the batting order before his place comes up to bat?
March 27, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2080 posts
Itís mind boggling that so many donít know this rule! Happens all the time.
March 28, 2022
stick8
1985 posts
Itís pretty simple. If youíre a courtesy runner and your turn to bat comes up while youíre still on base, itís an out and you lose the runner.
March 28, 2022
ebo17
5 posts
Q19 may be on to something.

Q19 is my P and bats 11th in the line-up
Q19 goes in to courtesy run
As the coach, a few plays later I realize that his position in the line-up may come up while he is still on base.

Am I permitted to substitute Q20 into Q19's spot in the line-up (batting 11th) without having to replace him as the courtesy runner? If so, then Q20 bats when it comes time, and Q19 remains the courtesy runner. If not, then it seems that you are tagging the courtesy runner as Q19's spot in the line-up and not Q19.

Food for thought.
March 28, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2080 posts
Nope, canít do it. Thatís what everyone trie's to say when they get caught in this situation.
March 28, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
ebo17 ... Q19 is onto the actual issue that prevents avoiding the out ... Please remember it's the batting order position who's required to bat ... Please feel free to put the substitute in early so that HE CAN BE DECLARED OUT ... A more logical solution is to not go brain dead and employ a CR who has the mathematical potential to come up while on base ... In Phoenix when the World Championships were there before the Las Vegas era began, a Championship was decided on this precise issue ... The defensive team (Visitor) was clinging to a one run lead with two outs in the bottom of the 7th with the tying run on 2nd base, who was a CR ... That CR was up third ... Defensive team saw it and intentionally walked the next two batters to force the third out, end of game, World Championship for them ...

March 28, 2022
STL0
Men's 55
222 posts
If the runner on third was paying attention or anyone else on the team (scorekeeper, coach, etc.), you should know that you have to attempt to score from 3rd on that at bat under that circumstance so you tag up and go on the fly ball. You try to keep it quiet or the other teams just walks the batter and the inning is over. I would think that the runner on 3rd had to know that he was up next. Did he attempt to score?
March 30, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
DD - you and others have done an admirable job explaining to the folks on this thread that didn't previously understand the purpose or reasoning for the "out" when a courtesy runner was still occupying a base and his time at bat came up.

I like your very distinct reference to THE BATTING ORDER POSITION that you have emphasized. This is the same reference that i stressed repeatedly when earlier threads discussing the ITR were being bantered back and
forth. Second thoughts to the opposition to my interpretation of this rule, using the exact same logic that you have used??

March 30, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
T2 ... It's not the same analysis ... The CR rule/substitute issue deals with a particular position in the batting order ... The ITB rule identifies a specific batter: "..The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed, assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base.."
March 31, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
DD - i contend that you and others take too literal of an interpretation of the ITB rule as USA/ASA and other leagues have same requirement for the extra inning, next batter after last out of previous inning of course is up to bat, last out which is now last batter in the rotation takes the position at second base.

all i ask is that you answer/address the scenario below.

Top of 7th inning and visitors take two run lead or tie game, score really is irrelevant as long as the home team is required to bat. The 2nd baseman (Joe) made the last out for the visitors and he was hitting 3rd in the lineup. Good hitter, not so good fielder so their coach substitutes for him (Sam) goes in at 2nd base. Which is good as Joe's wife called and he immediately leaves for home.

Home team ties the score in bottom of the 7th and ITB is now in effect. The last out in the previous inning by the visitors was made by Joe, the original hitter in the #3 slot. He has been properly substituted for, and has been called home to help his wife with an emergency. Sam, properly substituted after top of 7th is the player that assumes the role as runner at 2nd base.

Cannot be anything different in the universe that we live in. If you continue to say that the ONLY person that can be placed as the runner at 2nd base to fulfill the ITB rule is Joe, please explain that to the manager of the team, their sponsor, and all the other players as Sam was substituted for Joe prior to the bottom half of the inning was played with absolutely nothing concerning the ITB a part of the manager making his CORRECT and LEGAL substitution.
March 31, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
T2 ... It's not that big a deal ... If "Joe's Not Here!", he's out #1 and the next previous individual batter goes out to second base ... Unless, of course, he drove Joe home, which results in "next man up", now with two outs ... This isn't difficult! ...
March 31, 2022
DirkPitt
31 posts
T2, your scenario sounds valid but the SSUSA ITB rule is very clear and says the last batter to complete their AB in the prior inning must be the one to assume the position at 2B. Nothing else matters as the rule states. If you're playing by SSUSA rules and that exact batter is not available for any reason, an out is recorded and the next batter to complete their AB assumes the position at 2B. I've pasted in the text from the actual rule below 5.4(2). Also, it doesn't matter who made the last out, it's the last batter to have completed their AB in SSUSA.

"EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner."

March 31, 2022
B.J.
1080 posts
T2 .. there is no other way to take the rule but literally it's in black and white and very clear ... you are correct the substitution for Joe was CORRECT AND LEGAL... but when they come up to bat they then MUST RE-INSERT Joe back into the line up and place him on 2B as the "Effect" of the rule states

EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner.




April 1, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
B.J. ... Unless the original ITB designated runner entered the game initially as a substitute ... They can cycle him out as T2 described, but then he's prohibited from being cycled back in because substitutes may not re-enter once removed ... That's what happens when people tend to over-think things unnecessarily! ...
April 1, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
DD, DirkPitt, BJ Would we all agree that the SSUSA Rule 5.4(2) International Tie-Breaker Rule is in place to provide a means to consistently start an extra inning with a runner on second base that is the player that made the last out for the team coming to bat. First batter in the extra inning, as is usual, is the next batter in the line-up after the batter making the last out in the last inning.

This rule gives structure and does not allow a manager to "select" a player, possibly his fastest (?) or smartest (?) baserunner to enhance his chances of scoring a run. I'm in agreement with all of the reasoning for the ITB rule.

Below is the rule in place for ASA/USA play.

SECTION 11 - TIE-BREAKER RULE
(Menís 40-Over, Men's Masters 50-Over & Seniors, Womenís & Junior Olympic Girls Fast Pitch, Men's Senior Slow Pitch) When after the completion of seven innings of play (or time has expired in J.O. play), the score is tied, the following Tie-Breaker Rule will be played to determine a winning team.
A. Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat last in that respective half inning being placed on second base (e.g., if the number five batter is the lead off batter, the number four batter in the batting order will be placed on second base. A substitute may be inserted for the runner).
B. If a team is in the tie-breaker and the Short Handed Rule is in effect, do not declare an out if the absent player is the one who should begin the half inning at second base. Instead, place on second base the player whose name precedes the absent playerís name in the line-up.

This rule has the same intent, written differently, to provide a constant starting point for extra inning play. they have added an extra sentence or caveat (in my opinion) as the last sentence under (A) "A substitute may be inserted for the runner) which i would not agree with, i'm pretty sure you three along with many others would join me in this disagreement because this would then allow the manager to "insert" by substitution, his fastest or smartest baserunner available on his bench.

I have already shown an instance in earlier post where a proper substitute already in the game should (in my opinion and interpretation of the intent of the ITB rule) be the runner positioned at second base.

We disagree that is clear, but i believe that the intent is as i have stated above, not to literally say the player (by name) and not the player in the batting position that has been correctly substituted by rule, should now be "inserted" into the game although he is no longer in the game.

At the very least, the rule as written by SSUSA Rulemakers could (?) be written better, or should (?) be written better.

Lastly, rules for play should be independent of other rules in the same rule book, meaning, one rule further down in the listing of rules of play, should not "trump" a previously correctly followed rule. When there is conflict, the rules should be written so that one does not contradict the other.

DD - you have my email address, if you have an opportunity, please send to me those individuals that write/review/amend the rules of play for SSUSA so i might contact them via email with some concerns, with possible alternatives for easier interpretation of the written rules currently in place.

thanks to each of you for listing to this long response. Turning2




April 1, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
T2 ... The National Rules Committee members enjoy the same protections that all SSUSA members do under our Privacy Policy ... Should you wish to communicate with them, email to info@seniorsoftball.com with "Rules Committee" in the subject line is the most efficient and recommended manner to do so ...
____________

The Committee membership roster is a matter of public record, but their contact information is not ... From the Official Minutes of the Committee sessions last year:

Members Present (13 total members): Donna McGuire (Chair/MO/Regional U.I.C.), Terry Hennessy (CA/C.E.O.), Fran Dowell (CA/Executive Director), Michael Boone (NJ/Director), Don Brooks (TX/Director), Dave Dowell (CA/Director), Mike Hula (NV/Director), Tim McElroy (MD/Director), Felix Mendiola (NV/Director), Doug Robbins (CA/Director), Rick Seifman (AZ/V.P. Umpires)

Alternates: Ron Grassi (WA/Director) and Randy Rowe (MO/Director)

NOTE: Committee Members Otis Rowland (OK/Director) and Don Reddig (CA/Director) were unable to attend and replaced by Alternates.

April 1, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
Thanks Dave, Iíll send in a couple of recommendations/proposals for their consideration when they next meet.

Canít speak enough about the professionalism exhibited by you and your cohorts. Makes visiting this site an enjoyable experience that Iím sure is shared by many. Thanks, RR
April 1, 2022
B.J.
1080 posts
DD.. yes I agree 100% .. BUT .. how would it be handled if they didn't cycle him back out and they put the sub. at 2B .. would he be called out upon touching the bag like you do on an illegal CR or would the defense have to make an appeal??







April 1, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
Purely a random guess, because I don't think I've ever seen a team go completely brain dead across the entire roster, but I'm thinking it's an Appeal for an illegal substitution ... I have about a 51% confidence rating on that opinion!
April 1, 2022
B.J.
1080 posts
I was leaning toward the illegal substitution appeal also
April 2, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
BJ and DD - in your last two posts you have questions about the clarity and intent of the rule as you interpret it, or so it appears.

Returning to my 3/31/2022 post where i referenced DD's 3/28/2022 emphasis
"BATTING ORDER POSITION" see below, once again, where the Rulebook shows what to do via written rules when you reach the point of extra innings and the use of SSUSA Rule 5.4(2) International Tie-Breaker Rule

Joe is original 2nd baseman batting 3rd in line-up, he is replaced by Sam in the 4th inning, he is re-inserted into the line-up in the 6th inning. He is again replaced in the line-up by Bill after making the last out in the top of the 7th inning.

Home team ties the game in bottom of the 7th inning. Per SSUSA rules (all of the rules) Joe cannot play in the game further as he has been substituted for and re-entered and now he is through. Sam cannot come into the game either as he was a substitute but has been properly replaced by Bill.

Bill is the runner that takes position at 2nd base in the top of the 8th inning. There is no question when the rules are applied correctly.

Hope you two agree with this application of the entire rulebook. RR
April 2, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
BJ & DD pardon - one correction above - same result
Joe replaced by Sam
Joe re-entry - Sam is done
Joe replaced by Bill - Joe is done, i inadvertently above said that Bill replaced Sam
April 2, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
I have no questions whatsoever about the content, intent and clarity of this rule ... The last individual and identifiable batter who completed his turn at bat is the ITB runner, period ... The only possible way that could be problematical is if this game involves the Bob Newhart Show cast, with Larry, his brother Darryl and their other brother Darryl in the lineup ... The SSUSA Rule is elegant in its simplicity and highly unlikely to be changed ...
April 2, 2022
Turning2
Men's 70
194 posts
DD - Then please answer this question, Who takes the position as the runner at second base in my scenario? And include your reasoning if "ANY" SSUSA rule is circumvented.

And also provide the appeal and protest process that the defensive team might have at their disposal if YOUR interpretation of SSUSA Rule 5.4(2) usurps any previously adhered to rule by inserting an ineligible player.

I think that i have the RULEBOOK to support my position. Conversely, i feel as if you and others have used too literal an interpretation, using a player (by name) and not "as you have previously referenced,"BATTING ORDER POSITION", and have not the rulebook to support your position but in stubbornness will usurp other rules to try to justify your position.

Your attempt at humor doesn't help your position, makes you seem to take a position that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Support your position with factual reference and you'll be a bit more believable.
April 2, 2022
B.J.
1080 posts
T2.. I understand how you THINK you are applying the rule correctly .. BUT the rule states VERY CLEARLY AND LITERALLY that the runner going to 2B is...

THE RUNNER IS THE "LAST BATTER" OF THE PREVIOUS INNING WHOSE TURN AT BAT HAS BEEN COMPLETED ASSUMING A POSITION ON SECOND BASE
" NOW READ THE REST CAREFULLY"

NO SUBSTITUTE OR COURTESY RUNNER MAY REPLACE HIM UNTIL HE HAS REACHED THIRD BASE

now who was the last batter of the previous inning .. IT WAS JOE.. so Joe must go to 2B.. if he cannot take the base FOR ANY REASON INCLUDING ANY OR ALL OF THE ABOVE SCENARIOS THAT YOU GAVE HE WILL BE CALLED OUT.. and then the next previous batter will be the ITB runner

the reason this rule was written this way was because SSUSA didn't want to follow the USA/ASA rule of being able to use a sub or CR .. until the ITB runner had reached 3B then he can be replaced
April 2, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4194 posts
After this (hopefully) brief comment, I'm done with this annoying exercise in cyclical redundancy ... The ITB rule clearly and concisely requires the last specifically identifiable batter who completed his at-bat in the prior inning to start on 2B and to reach 3B on his own ... If he can't or won't, because his wife called him home, because his coach botched his substitution (either in or out), because he doesn't feel like running, because he's the slowest guy in the county, because he died, or for ANY other reason, he is declared out and the next previous batter goes to 2B ... The cost of that failure to go to 2B is an out for each and every person your hypothetical attempts to excuse from his obligation to run ... It's crystal clear in the mind of every commentator here, but for one ...

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