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Discussion: Am i wrong to think this way

Posted Discussion
March 3
Obad2019

19 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Before I say this, let me give you a little background. I have played softball on some level for over 32 years. I was so happy to get old enough to play senior ball because there where so many shaved bats in the lower alphabets that I knew I was going to get away from them in senior softball. Every senior softball bat that I have swung have all been hot out the wrapper. This subject is always touchy, but I have to say it. If this do not apply to you, then I am not talking to you. If. I do mean if, you are swinging a shaved or cut senior bat and walking around with your head up, that's horrible. Shaving a senior bat. In the words of all the people who love this game, come on man. I know somebody going to say everyone does it, that is not true. I don't claim to be nowhere near the best hitter ever, but I am missing the need to shave a senior bat. I thought those days were over. I can be wrong. I am interested to read some feedback.
Aug. 3
Ultra “G”

1 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Im 53 now. I have always looked forward to playing senior ball. Well here I am 53 and not playing because of stupid work schedule. Flex hrs. Not much of a life. Be thankful your even playing. Shave or not shaved. I still have to play pick up in asa/usssa when my schedule allows it. Right now it’s Sunday nights. No we’re in my town do they ever play senior on a Sunday. Probably no where in the world. Uuugh
Aug. 3
Scott Harder
Men's 60
62 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Please look at the string started in May titled "enough said" If you are altering a senior bat you may need help. They are all super hot already and if you can't hit it well, it's not the bat. I hear people suggest others are cutting/shaving bats, but it could just be that they are good hitters.
Aug. 3
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Cheaters that are cheaters are cheaters at any age. It happens. Just motion them to first, pisses them off more than others.
Aug. 3
stick8

1994 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Anyone caught using a shaved senior bat should be banned at least 10 years.
Aug. 4
lb16
Men's 60
201 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Agree with stick on this one. The problem is none of the senior organizations make it simple to expose the cheaters. The protest fees are ridiculous so there isn't much of a deterrent. I hope all senior organizations will go to bat testing soon. It's not that expensive for bat testers. Mt .02 cents worth!
Aug. 4
Benji4
Men's 55
290 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Stick and lb16

You propose a strong penalty but here are a few things you fail to realize.

SSUSA has a zero chance of determining if a bat is shaved or altered unless they confiscate it and cut it open. Do you believe they want to do that every time someone complains? Who will pay to replace the bat if it's not altered? Do you know how many times teams complain about other player's bats being illegal? A shitload.

There is no compression rating for senior bats. If there was, many senior players would complain the bats aren't good and bat companies would not make money. Trust me when I say not all bats are made equally. It's like buying a car some are just simply made better than others.

Bat testing will not solve the problem. Like I said there is no compression number for a senior bat. Besides I have seen bats that fail and the person testing just turns the bat to the other side and it passes. Most people testing don't know how to test or simply don't care. What compression number do you want to see 240 like the youngsters? I'm guessing most senior bats test well below that number. You can shave a bat and not use it and it will still pass compression. It will get hotter as the tournament goes.

The only proposed problem solver would be to confiscate the bat if a player hits the pitcher. If the pitcher's team believes it is shaved then they pay for the cost of cutting it open and replacing it if it is not altered. Most softball players are cheap so therefore that probably won't work either.

People have been cheating in sports for a 100 years and it is not going to change. SSUSA like any other organization has it's hands tied when enforcing any type of altered bat rule other than something that is obvious.

Benji
Aug. 4
TimMcElroy

969 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
The only proposed problem solver would be to confiscate the bat if a player hits the pitcher. If the pitcher's team believes it is shaved then they pay for the cost of cutting it open and replacing it if it is not altered. Most softball players are cheap so therefore that probably won't work either.


You're proposing the Associations take a "No blood, no foul" approach? It's up to the injured party to police cheating? I've got an issue with that.


Here's a term that cheaters should get familiar with- CHARACTER.
Aug. 4
mck71
Men's 60
348 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
All, I agree this is a silly thing that we are discussing, a 305' HR is not far enough, needs to be 400'?

Benji, I also agree that coming up with a number for compression testing sr bats won't be easy. I had "heard" a rumor that a pitcher had been hit in Eastern Nationals, bat was confiscated, cut open and plyer rec'd a 5 yr ban, I was ESTATIC! I called Tim and he confirmed the first 2 items were indeed correct but the bat was not cut open and was given back to the player at the end of the day.

Me personally, I pitch and anyone on my team knows if I get hit "unusually", please grab the bat and I am one of those guys that would be more than happy to pay the freight on this "cut/replace if not" theory you have described (fair or not, has to start somewhere, right?).

And before the huge debate starts, we know as pitchers mistakes happen, it IS part of the game is hitting middle and there is def a possibility of getting hit (most of us are simply mad because we all think we should CATCH a ball going over 100MPH 50 ft away! LOL) BUT I also can pretty much tell the different sound a "hot" stick makes or how fast the ball travels past me :-)

Finally, I agree with Tim, what does it say about a person who has to cheat to win? Simply stated, player lacks CHARACTER which is pretty sad but worse, it will continue until someone gets seriously hurt!

My apologies but can't remember who used to say this all the time on here: Senior Bats are STOOPID!

Good luck to all the rest of the season, play and stay safe!
Aug. 4
lb16
Men's 60
201 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
mck71 - So a confiscated back was looked at by either the tourney director or UIC and determined not to be altered and gave back. If that was the case as I said this is part of the problem you can't tell if a bat has been altered by just looking at it. And bat testing although not perfect will help in some fashion and yes the pass/fail would have to be lower than 240.
Aug. 4
stick8

1994 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Benji, ive umprd some u-trip conference and they do it right. Bats are tested before teams play. A sticker is put on the ones that pass and then they’re put into a plastic bucket. Team Buckets are put on the field before their game. Players can only use the bats from their team bucket. After play is done for the day the team buckets are locked away until the next day. Once teams are eliminated is when they get their bats back. Now I don’t expect senior softball to do anything like that but unless they come out with an mri for bats, that’s as fulproof as you can get.
Now I ump for one nation. In the lower levels if a pitcher gets drilled then the bat is taken out and is given a compression test that my UIC has on site. Pass and bat is returned to the player. Fail and they keep the bat and try to somehow determine if it’s been shaved. How they do that is beyond me.
I had a case a couple years ago. A class D players bat tested 140 on all 4 sides. Yikes! It was sent away to be cut open and it was totally shaved. That guy was banned for 5 years.
I was not aware senior softball doesn’t have a compression number for their bats.
Aug. 4
lb16
Men's 60
201 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
stick8 - No pass/fail number for senior bats as of yet. Nothing done if pitcher or anyone is hit as of yet. You have to pay like a $250.00 protest fee to protest a bat and what are they going to do take a look at it? No explanation by any of the senior organizations on the process to have a bat tested that is protested. As I said no current deterrents in place at all. Compression testing would be a start!
Aug. 4
Full Count

57 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Senior bats are already low compression especially after breaking in. So that is not a fair test. Senior softball organizations need to put pressure on bat manufacturers.
Make a cap that screws off. Measure thickness of the wall.
Aug. 4
r4pitch

93 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Do they test at half century now??? What number did they pick...Reid BPA#4
Aug. 4
bogie
Men's 65
450 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
I had someone who represented a bat company tell me a shaved bat, would not perform any better than a very well broken in senior bat because the fiber layups are the same and they only get so hot due to the design. He said many hitters are using senior bats that they have not hit enough to be broken in. I personally bought a bat compression tester so I would know when my senior bats went from asa compession of 230 down to a hot 185. When they get much lower, so 150, they get too soft and I find performance not as good. I think Dave from senior softballbat reviews had a good comment when he tested some older seniors game bats, and they were still almost as stiff as they were new, in all probability because they didnt hit them as hard as younger players, and bats were not breaking in fast for them. I surely dont condone shaved bats but I am curious if anyone has done some testing on a well broken in..ie 180 compression tested legal senior bat vs. a SHAVED senior bat??? I would like to know if there is really a huge difference in a shaved senior vs a well broken in senior...or are we seeing alot of seniors not having bats that have legally been swung enough to break in fully? It would be interesting to buy a shaved bat and see, but that is a road I would not want to take. Has anyone had a chance to compare a shaved bat vs a well broken in gamer of the same model and size??? Also if a hot legal senior is 185 asa compression, what would the shaved bat be testing?
Also Ill add that I see smaller athletes with great mechanics and legal bats who are hitting viscous line drives and homeruns..and it just seems someone will often say...Oh, hes swinging as shaved bat. Easy to be a hater or assume someone small is swinging a cut stick. If someone has done a scientific test or compression test on shaved vs broken in, would love to read the results. Check out your area or bat sales guys at tournaments and see if someone has a tester will check your gamer...its invaluable information on how well your bat is broken in and if its close to its potential.
Aug. 5
DirkPitt

34 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
I play in the Florida Half Century league as I'm sure many on this forum do. They have implemented compression testing and any bat that tests below 150 will not receive a "sticker" certifying the bat is legal to use in games. At the moment, once a bat is tested it doesn't need to be tested again but it's a start and they are trying. If a batter comes to the plate with a bat that does not have a sticker they are to be called out on the spot, not after they hit.

It's been interesting to see what the different manufacturer's bats test "out of the wrapper."

My observation is the number of 350'+ HR's has decreased dramatically.

Separate comment: FHC has somehow found a way to supply Tatoo balls to ~200 teams each month. Go figure...

Aug. 5
titanhd
Men's 60
641 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
I own a WORTH Titan U-trip bat that is as hot as any Senior bat.When I started playing Senior ball I didn't want to buy a Senior bat because of the no warranty. I used this bat playing 50 thru 60 but stop using it at 60 because of all the "bat is shaved comments"from Players and teams. Just wanted to avoid the drama of defending the bat and myself (Character). Bat is stock, bought brand new from Worth. I would have not allowed it to be confiscated cause I know it's not altered but, would have been suspended for not doing so and lose a great bat too. So I Bought and use a senior bat. Which is still not as hot as the Titan! I still have the bat and just use it for batting practice sometimes. Bat is a beast. Must has 5-6000 swings on it. (stick8 knows this bat)

All that said the disparity in what is deemed as"shaved"or illegal by the untrained eye of a player, Director or association is huge.

My opinion on banning a Player should by a "FOREVER" ban not, 5 years.Once a cheater in 5 years you'll (sic) still be a cheater.
Aug. 5
Manassas
Men's 70
5 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Can I ask the question…..Is it not possible to not use end caps. Would that stop the shaving problem?
Aug. 5
Benji4
Men's 55
290 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Stick8

I have umpired and played USSSA and I agree testing the bat and putting it in a bucket works, but it takes more personnel and SSUSA would have to keep track of everyone's bats. I could see a bat getting lost and holy hell breaking loose. Then a compression number would also need to be established.

ASA a few weeks ago tested and put a sticker on the handle of the bat and gave it back to the player. I heard teams just removed the sticker and placed it on their shaved bat. That type of testing was worthless.

Testing may work but like I said SSUSA will have to establish a compression number. And right now most seniors don't want a compression number for their bat. And yes if you have been playing long enough you can hear that some bats sound different. But a legal bat ready to crack also makes a different distinct sound.

Tim

Associations could establish rules for taking bats so it's not on the players. I just think taking and cutting open bats every time someone gets hit or someone complains will lead to other issues. But it would only take one person receiving a long suspension to possibly deter cheating. We could talk character until you are blue in the face and some people are still going to cheat regardless.

Bat companies won't make a bat with a different type of cap because if you shave your bat it probably breaks sooner and then you have to buy another one. It's all about $$$$$$$.

Benji
Aug. 5
nails
Men's 70
71 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Just wondering does anyone out there hav their own.tester? It looks like they cost bout 1000 bucks. I guess u could tell when it’s time to get a new bat?
Aug. 5
ju25
Men's 60
236 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Testing would put an end to an already fading senior softball. Sad to say but there are a few out there who alter their bats, but that has been around forever. What compresion number would you use, when well broken in bats test in the 150/170 range, with most probably in the 180/210 range. A good bat doctor will get by the compression test, but only be good for 1 tourney
Aug. 5
ju25
Men's 60
236 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
From what I heard, when bats get around 150 they are too soft for guys with good bat speed, but great for oldtimers and those without bat speed.
Aug. 6
ju25
Men's 60
236 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Watched some videos of Dave V. testing bats from '19 thru '21. Suncoast 235 out of wrapper, '20 Miken JB 225 new 198 after 75 swings, Mach 1 223 new 175 after 50 swings, well broken in Suncoast 160, '21 Miken JB 175,Worth AT 18 190, Dudley Doom 200. Most senior bats test between 260 and 225 new but the numbers will drop to 200 or below with about 100 swings. Only advantage to shaving your bat is it starts out lower than 220 but thinning the walls will take away from durabilty. 200+ for a bat and 50-100 to have it doctored, not worth it. Leave the rules alone, cheaters will always find a way to cheat, sad but true!
Aug. 7
pnutbutter

2 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
I got hit at the Toc in Florida this year and the bat was confiscated and sent to Sacramento
When I asked about it months later they told me they removed the end cap and it was not altered.
Aug. 7
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4360 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
pnutbutter ... Minor clarification to your story ... SSUSA did NOT remove the end cap nor did we perform any internal technical evaluation on the bat you refer to ... We lack the tools, expertise and/or desire to "open" a bat for this type of evaluation ... We DID, however, send the bat to its manufacturer for their analysis and, as you represented, their conclusion was that the bat had NOT been altered ...

Aug. 8
Biskit 09

10 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
If you have to shave a senior bat maybe its time to hang it up
Aug. 8
bond_171513
Men's 55
79 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
ju25 - Fading Senior Softball? SMH
Winter Worlds - 225 teams
Spring Worlds - 131 teams
Southwest Championships - 246 teams
Reno - 203 teams
SoCal - 83 teams
Western Nationals - 157 teams

Senior Ball alive and well out west!
Aug. 9
bogie
Men's 65
450 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Actually Dave from senior softball bat reviews, in his latest update, stated that due to the fiber layup of some senior bats, his opinion was that some bats will get hotter than normal breakin due to shaving. I would really like to see someones test that compared the same model shaved vs broken in at 180lb asa compression to see if there is a performance advantage to shaving vs just well broken in. Not that it changes it being wrong, but out of curiousity. Like Dave also mentioned, light hitting seniors often have bats that are not broken in, even after a few years, because they are not hit enough or hit hard enough. A broken in bat legally will often hit much, much better than a bat that is not.
May 12
JayPlay22

5 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Obad2019 any chance you’re looking to add players? I’m looking to join a 50s tournament team and live in MD. I mainly play SS, 3B and 2B.
-Jay
May 14
DJ12

24 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Can anyone explain what a bat tester is? What does it mean when you say a bat "failed"? Failed what? Do you keep testing bats until you have one that "passes"? tyia
May 15
nickname36

98 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
"EXACTLY"

With these new fancy dancy bat testers coming soon to a tournament near you soon do these testers know when a bat has been rolled as opposed to being shaved?

May 15
JohnO28
Men's 50
127 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
Nickname36,

According to the rules rolling a bat is illegal as well. But to answer your question, no a compression tester can't tell the difference between rolled, shaved or very broken in.
May 16
Bruce M
Men's 55
125 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
There is more than one way to alter a bat's performance. Shaving is one. Rolling a bat is another. Harmless?
Good for folks who don't do BP? Wrong. It is still cheating. Rolling will break in a bat faster. It will also break it in evenly on all sides of the barrel. And....it is still cheating aka. rolled bats are altered bats = life-time ban/loss of TOC births....no Worlds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGEsXK9GPOw There is a guy who makes money off of cheating. He doesn't call it cheating. He calls it, "Victory Through Innovation" You can put lip stick on a pig. It's still a pig.
May 16
nickname36

98 posts
Am i wrong to think this way
"EXACTLY"

If rolling a bat is illegal, then what is hitting a wooden telephone pole about 1/2 to 3/4 swing speed about 150 to 200 times with a thin towel wrapped around the bat and turning the bat as you go, a lot of parks 20/30 years ago had wooden telephone light poles and you would see guy smacking the wooden telephone poles for ten minutes or so and no park director of umpire said anything about the practice.. What about hitting a bat with a rounded rubber mallet with a towel wrapped around the bat hitting it 150 to 200 times spinning it after each hit. What does the rule book say about these two ways of breaking in a bat.
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