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Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
Feb. 13, 2022
Perl
206 posts
You make the call
Looking for answer using SPA rules.

Runner on 3rd. Ground ball hit to third baseman. Third baseman chases runner past the commitment line and tags him out. After he tags the runner he throws it to the catcher standing on home plate. Umpire calls runner safe and dead ball. Umpire says tag was illegal thus a dead ball.

Do you agree or disagree. Where in the SPA rule book can I find your answer?
Feb. 13, 2022
jah#4
Men's 70
572 posts
If a defensive player tags the runner after the runner has crossed the commitment line, the runner is automatically safe Time is only called if the person making an act of obstruction
Feb. 14, 2022
Webbie25
Men's 65
2342 posts
I've watched an increasing number of players use that commit line in a way it was not intended to be used. They go up to it and stop and wait until the third baseman comes up to tag them, and then they quickly step over. I believe an amendment needs to be made to stop this. Possible ideas-runner can stop at the line for a limited amount of time before he is out. Defensive player can make the tag past the commit line in certain circumstances where a runner has attempted to use this rule. Maybe someone else has a better idea. When it happens, it is not a bang-bang play.
Feb. 14, 2022
DieselDan
Men's 70
503 posts
First option is for the defensive player to hold the ball while in the glove. Just move the glove forward, without the ball, to touch the player. If they touch the line or dirt past the line, throw the ball to the catcher. Second option is to hold the glove with ball facing downward and lower by the runner's waist. Just before touching the runner, open the glove so the ball falls out. If they touch/pass the line, again toss ball to catcher, if you can bend over to pick it up.
Feb. 14, 2022
Webbie25
Men's 65
2342 posts
I know how to play it as I do play third. But it is a play that shouldn't even happen.
Feb. 14, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2021 posts
No need to change the rules. Itís a smart play by the base runner. If the third baseman is not smart enough to know what to do, so be it.
Feb. 14, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
As the post is stated I agree with part of it.
1) Yes the runner is automatically safe if he is tagged after crossing the commit line.
2) The SPA rulebook doesnít specifically whether the ball is live or dead but it does state itís a dead ball if the runner who is ruled automatically safe interferes with the catcher.
Therefore, minus interference by the runner after the throw home the ball is still a live ball
Feb. 14, 2022
bkb555
293 posts
It has become a strategic part of baserunning because of the tag/no tag by the commitment line....it is no different than if a runner stops in the middle of the base path to avoid a tag and quick throw to a base for a DP.....once fielders realize runners are going to use the line to their advantage, they will get smarter.....just another strategy of the game no matter if is petty or cagey ...and no different than coaches calling other teams for illegal runners or guys touching bases before entered as a runner etc and then called out....learn the rules and use them to your advantage
Feb. 15, 2022
Airbosn
Men's 70
329 posts
A little clarification. The runner ran across the commitment line and came to a complete stop waiting for the defensive player to make contact.
Feb. 15, 2022
SSUSA Staff
3225 posts
Airbosn ... Yes, under SSUSA Rulebook Definition ß1.15 (see below), the base runner stopping as you described is allowed ... There is one commentor here who believes and asserts that the base runner must continue home without stopping ... The rule as written does not include such a requirement and, accordingly, we decline to impose that obligation in the absence of any specific language to the contrary ...
__________

ß1.15 ē COMMITMENT LINE
A minimum six (6) foot (1.83 m) commitment line shall be marked across and perpendicular to the foul line and placed thirty feet from home plate. Once a runner has crossed the commitment line he: [a] cannot return to third base; [b] must continue home; [c] can no long be tagged out by the defensive player; the defensive player must touch the strike zone mat. The ball remains live.

Feb. 15, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Airborne, that was a headsy play by that runner!
Feb. 15, 2022
B.J.
1002 posts
SSUSA staff (Dave).. lol.. I stayed away from answering because it was an SPA question on a SSUSA site.. yes I am the "1" commenter who believes and asserts that the runner must continue home without stopping.. he can walk very slowly but he "must continue"

now I was not an English major but the way the rule is written it specifically states that the runner after crossing the C/L .. (b) "MUST CONTINUE HOME" ..

here is a definition for the word CONTINUE.. to maintain without interruption a condition, course, or action ...

so if the runner COMPLETELY STOPS after crossing the C/L he definitely has "interrupted" his forward motion toward HP and by definition is no longer CONTINUING home..

as I stated in the past just remove (b) and you will then have a rule that is correctly written
Feb. 15, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2021 posts
You quote only the first definition of continue. It also meansÖ

to resume an activity after interruptionÖie.
ďWe'll continue after lunch.Ē

So a runner may stop.
Feb. 15, 2022
B.J.
1002 posts
Dbax .. yes you can use the word continue in different ways.. BUT in this version it says you MUST CONTINUE HOME which means you can't stop

so you are saying that if your doing an activity and it has a rule that specifically states that once you start this activity you MUST CONTINUE until finished to win, that you would be able to stop for lunch and then start back up again and still win ..
Feb. 15, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
We can end this battle of definitions by letting you know the (only) one that matters under SSUSA sanctioned play ... "Continue" in this context means the next destination base is the scoring plate/line ... And we don't even care if the base runner wants to sit down and take a little nap, since he can't be legally tagged out! ... This entire debate strikes me as nothing more than "a difference without a distinction" ...

Feb. 15, 2022
Dbax
Men's 65
2021 posts
BJ when you say you are not an English Major, you got that right.
Feb. 15, 2022
B.J.
1002 posts
Dbax.. lmao .. although I would have made your reply .. you have that right
Feb. 17, 2022
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3208 posts
Perl, same thing happened to me about a month ago. I was baserunner, catcher tagged me after crossing commitment line. There was no call to I tried to run home. The catcher blocked my way to the scoring plate as he was attempting to reach home plate.
The umpire called me out. I contended that after he tagged me after crossing the commitment line the play should have been called dead.
He disagreed with me. After the game the UIC said should have been dead.
We won the game easily so no problem with us.
Back to your question, umpire is correct.
I believe SPA and SSUSA rules are the same.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.:)
Feb. 17, 2022
Caztex
1 posts
I was the 3rd baseman involved in this play.I was chssing full speed a half step behind runner and closing. I had the ball up above my head ready to throw home when the runner stopped dead right in front of me right after crossing the line.I had to bring my hands down and brace for a collision in doing do I brought my arm down for impact and touched him on the shoulder then threw home.To me the rule was put in for saftey and prevent collisions and diving tags and now you have players stopping at a sprint and causing a collision. What if next time it happens and I flip home and run his ass over because I can't stop.
Feb. 17, 2022
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
Caztex ... It's not a lot different than tail gating on the freeway ... If you don't leave enough room in front of you to safely stop, when you run into him it's your fault as the trailing vehicle ... Next time consider running off his shoulder a bit in case he pulls that stunt ...
Feb. 17, 2022
B.J.
1002 posts
Caztex.. if you knew you couldn't tag him after he passes the CL why would you follow so closely.. you had the option of stopping about 2 ft. from the CL and you would have still been able to tag him if he didn't step over or you could easily throw home if he did
Feb. 17, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Bruce a couple things here
1) the umpire should have called you safe right away when you were tagged after you crossed the commit line.
2) itís a bit grey in the book but as I understand SPA rules, the play would be dead if the runner interfered with either the catcher or third baseman trying to make a play. Otherwise itís still a live ball until the ump determines no plays can be made at any other base.
Keep in mind if the ump would have correctly called you safe you are not required to touch the second plate or cross the scoring line, you go right to your dugout.
Feb. 17, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Caztex, thatís a heads up play by that runner!
Feb. 18, 2022
lb16
Men's 55
177 posts
Steve, You could have just asked me!! Yes runner is safe, once he crosses line if fielder tags him he is automatically safe.
Feb. 18, 2022
lb16
Men's 55
177 posts
Steve, In SPA rulebook it is Rule 8 Section 3 Definition L.
Feb. 18, 2022
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
Some call it a smart play while others refer to it as a tacky tack play, and I guess it depends what side of the play you are on.
FYI- another organization has this as their rule to eliminate that problem:
" A tagged runner after the commitment line is not automatically awarded the base. The ball will remain live until the scoring plate is touched by the runner or home plate touched by a defensive player in possession of the softball"
Fact remains though that we play by the rules we have.
Feb. 18, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
K man, correct me if Iím wrong but I read this as a runner who was tagged after passing the commit line can still be be out if a defensive player has possession of the ball while standing on home plate before that runner crosses the scoring line. Is that true?
Feb. 18, 2022
lb16
Men's 55
177 posts
stick, No once runner is tagged past commit line that runner is automatically safe and doesn't have to cross scoring line.
Feb. 18, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Thatís the way Iíve always understood it to be lb16.
However k man referenced another organization that has a different rule that he spelled out. .
Feb. 18, 2022
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
stick8, Yes, the runner can then be put out by a play at the plate or he must step on scoring plate/pass scoring line to score the run.
Feb. 18, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Interesting. Are you at liberty to state what organization has that rule?
Feb. 18, 2022
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
I just copied it from their website ISSA
Feb. 18, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Interesting. Didnít know they had that rule.
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