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Discussion: WHY ARE THESE OFFENSES CALLED DIFFERENTLY

Posted Discussion
Jan. 5, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
WHY ARE THESE OFFENSES CALLED DIFFERENTLY
I had this come up at my umpire clinic last month and I couldn't give an answer ..

this is pertaining to the 5 run limit per inning and runners who are forced to advance but fail to advance to the next base

the scenario is bases loaded no outs and 4 runs in .. the B/R gets a hit but he fails to advance to 1st base, as he enters his dugout he is immediately called out by the umpire (without an appeal) and all runners have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and no run would score per rule Rule 8.3 C

using this same scenario if it's the runner on 2nd who is also forced to advance and he fails to touch 3rd and he enters the dugout with no outs he would only be called out on appeal by the defense and the run would score

QUESTION ..
1) why is the BR called out with no appeal ?

2) for the B/R why do all runners have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and no run would score per rule Rule 8.3 C ... BUT .. the runner on 2nd that doesn't advance to 3rd is only called out if an appeal is made by the defense and the runners do not have to return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch and the run would score
Jan. 5, 2022
DCPete
407 posts
Rule 8.3C might make sense if there were 2 Outs at the time but having all the runners return to their base on a hit just because the batter didn't touch 1st base is just technical nonsense with no reasonable justification.
Jan. 7, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Good points DCPete. Like BJ asked I would have similar questions. Iíd be curious to know the intent of this rule.
Jan. 7, 2022
TimMcElroy
854 posts
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a batter to run 70 feet after getting a hit or taking a walk. Same theory should apply to runners on base. IMO, the offensive team shouldn't benefit because somebody in their dugout was too lazy, or too big of a showboat to do the minimum. Run the bases and this is a non-issue.
Jan. 7, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
Tim, thx for answering..
I 100% agree with you.. but as you know it does happen and as I stated above the question came up at my clinic ..
I know you are a UIC with SSUSA and are on the rules committee ..
so why is the same base running offense treated differently for a B/R then a runner, not only the no appeal needed to call the B/R out .. but also returning all the runners back to their base


Jan. 7, 2022
rmp0012002
Men's 50
57 posts
The way I see it is the B/R didnít finish his at-bat by touching first, just like any base runner missing a base. I would still have the run score and runners advance since there were no outs.
Jan. 8, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
rmp.. that is not what rule 8.3 C says
Jan. 8, 2022
DCPete
407 posts
Tim et al; pretty inconsistent ruling at best since both the Batter & all Runners are supposed to stop where they are and return to the dugout on any over the fence Home Run. Once the 5th run/runner has touched home plate with less than 2 outs, it should be just as much of a dead ball situation as a home run
Jan. 8, 2022
stick8
1965 posts
Take BJís scenario a step further. After the rule was applied and the play was over its bases loaded with one out. Then suppose the next batter hits into a 6-4-3 double play, the fifth run doesnít score. This could be the reason that the team loses the game by 1 run!
Thatís why on any tournament team Iíve ever played on has always stressed touch the next base in situations like this.
Jan. 10, 2022
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
Guys- 2 different scenarios: the runner on second MIGHT not have to advance in some scenarios i.e. force play on runner from first, the original runner could return. The batter does not have that option. If the batter ran past first without touching the base, that would constitute an appeal-- entirely different situation, as appeal makes the run scoring a timing play. My interpretation
Jan. 10, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
curty.. the original scenario was very specific bases are loaded so all runners MUST advance.. SSUSA treats the same type of violation of not advancing to the next base differently for B/R than a normal runner forced to advance ... The question is WHY?? So far they have yet to give a reason???

BTW your scenario of the B/R missing 1st base .. you are correct it would be appeal but it's not considered a timing play the run would score if there had been less than 2 outs at the time of the violation ...and if the there were 2 outs and the B/R was called out on appeal for missing the base the run would not score even if the appeal came after the runner had scored
Jan. 11, 2022
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
BJ-- simply for understanding purposes: in your scenario, ball fielded by shortstop, thrown to second base for force out. R2, leaves 2nd base but second baseman throws to third to get lead runner BUT that runner can return to second base, and must be tagged to be out, then third base throws to first to get b/r who isn't running-- triple play! I have been a part of this scenario!
Jan. 11, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
curty.. yes the COMPLETELY different scenario you just gave is 100% correct...

what I would like answered by Dave, Tim or someone else on the rules committee is MY scenario.. BUT seems like none of the powers to be want to or just can't explain WHY there is a different penalty for B/R then a runner and why the B/R is an automatic call by the umpire but it's an appeal play for a runner????
Jan. 12, 2022
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
AAH BJ- this scenario CAN happen in your case-- if no runner except the runner on third were to advance, even on a hit, if the defense is an it's toes!
Jan. 12, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
curty .. a scenario is written to get a answer on a specific play .. again YOU are changing my original scenario by saying only 1 runner advanced.. if you keep changing what I originally asked you can always come up with a different answer..

it's been a week now and SSUSA still hasn't responded .. that just tells me that no one on the SSUSA rules committee has the slightest idea why they have a TOTALLY DIFFERENT call and penalty for a B/R that does not advance to 1st base as to a runner who doesn't advance to their next base when forced to ???







Jan. 13, 2022
DCPete
407 posts
And they also haven't addressed why the Batter that doesn't run to 1st base on a hit with the bases loaded, nobody out and 4 Runs in is punished for being "lazy" but a Batter hitting an over-the-fence HR isn't punished or lazy even if they never leave the Batter's Box after their swing.
Jan. 13, 2022
TimMcElroy
854 posts
B.J. - I will look into this a bit further with some other folks on the rules committee. I've got a multitude of more pressing things on my plate right now, so it will likely be the DEC, 2022 rules committee meeting before any in depth conversations on the matter take place. That answer likely won't appease the masses, but that's the reality. it is what it is.

I normally don't chime in on message board questions, and have been reminded why.... 1) A tongue in cheek suggestion that somebody just run the bases somehow became an official response from the national office and 2) somebody will always take the scenario and add 11 more "what ifs" to the original question.
Jan. 13, 2022
B.J.
1008 posts
Tim, I fully understand and thx..
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