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Discussion: rulling

Posted Discussion
June 19, 2021
titanhd
Men's 60
604 posts
rulling
Last batter on second to begin an Extra inning.

The three critical words, "the last batter", are not subject to even the slightest amount of ambiguity and, accordingly, absolutely control the ITB situation.

My question is understanding that the Last batter is out if injured and cannot run. When is the illegal by rule substituted runner out? Once he steps on the base? after a live ball appeal?After a pitch is thrown or the illegal runner moves up to 3rd base can he still be called out as being illegal?
June 20, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3516 posts
titanhd ... Your "hypothetical" for injury or illness is covered in the rule at the EFFECT: portion ... That language is also quite specific and non-ambiguous [emphasis added] ... See below ...
__________

ß5.4(2) ē INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE
Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed, assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base. EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner.

June 20, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
titanhd.. to further answer your questions.. he could be called out a couple of ways..
1) if the offense talked to the umpire as the inning begins telling him he can't take the base because of injury he could be decleared out..
2)if the offense just sent out an illegal CR the SHOULD be called out upon touching the bag

an illegal CR is an ongoing offense amd can be called out until he enters his team area/dugout after scoring .. either by appeal or if the umpire realized that he was illegal and just missed the immediate call
June 20, 2021
titanhd
Men's 60
604 posts
Thank you both!
June 21, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
B.J. One correction to your illegal CR explanation. The courtesy runner can be called out even after he leaves the playing field and enters the dugout upon appeal by the defensive team PRIOR to the next pitch. See Rule below.

8.5(5) ē COURTESY RUNNER OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME
A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire before
play resumes. A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the
first pitch to any batter. A courtesy runner is in the game when he touches
the base. If a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base and no other courtesy runner is allowed. The original runner may not return as the runner. An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter.

titanhd - Speaking with UIC members from both the USA/ASA and SSUSA organizations, i have been told that the Rule Set adopted by SSUSA evolved (if this is the best word to use) from the ASA Rule book and was revised and/or adapted to establish the Senior Softball USA Rule set.

I differ in my application of the RULE ß5.4(2) ē INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE in the SSUSA Rule book and have commented on this in previous conversations on this forum. The wording is different in the ASA Rule Book (Rule 5 Section 11 para A & B), and that is not an issue as we are talking about two different sanctioning bodies. I hope to get more clarity on the application of both rule sets, differences, etc and currently i am in communication with ASA and SSUSA UIC's and hope to further their input by a post on the tie-breaker rule and it's application for both associations. I very much hope this helps both myself and others, Stay tuned.


June 21, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
T2.. you are correct I mistakenly omitted the before the next pitch..

as far as using USA rule sets you will find many differences between them and SSUSA.. the only time we revert back is if we can't find a rule covered in the SSUSA rule book.. which in this case it is covered and with VERY SPECIFIC WORDING of LAST BATTER not last position of the batting order ... so in getting any info. from UIC's make sure they are SSUSA UIC's
June 21, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
BJ - no problem, Iíll use references from both associations as I stated earlier to show how each of the sanctioning entities use their rules. And why, with supporting documentation.
June 24, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
Titanhd, recall the Bobby Chapp. Sammy made the last out for D & D in the bottom of the 7th. Score was tied. After we scored 6 in the top of the 8th, In Lance came out to start at second base (and he was standing on the base) where it should have been Sammy.
Thatís an out that should have been in the book. If it was then thatís correct. If not thatís on the umpire and us.
June 24, 2021
titanhd
Men's 60
604 posts
Stick I know. I argued that at the time as I did at the Smokey when the same thing happened.
June 25, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
Titanhd Iím glad you argued that at the time. I hate it when people say it wouldnít made a difference because as an umpire I maintain its imperative to get it right. Even if it takes time to call the UIC or get the rulebook on someoneís phone.
Iím not certain what the ISSA rule is on that
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