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Discussion: Ruling

Posted Discussion
June 3, 2021
stick8
1905 posts
Ruling
Senior ball.
Stick makes the last out in the top of the 7th inning. (damn)
BJ is put in as a sub for stick in the bottom of the 7th.
The score ends up tied.
The last out in the 7th starts off the 8th inning at second.
Since BJ went in for stick as a sub some might believe BJ runs because it’s the spot in the order and stick is out of the game.
I say stick has to run since he made the last out.
Tell us what you think.
June 3, 2021
Dbax
Men's 65
1971 posts
I’ve been waiting for this scenario. Especially in the Major Leagues. Have no idea what the rule is.
June 4, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
stick.. even though your mgr. was VERY smart in FINALLY putting me in you go back in at 2nd at the top of the 8th

5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE
Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed,
assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base. EFFECT: If the last batter of the
previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner
June 4, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
rule is in place for the "last batter position" in the lineup, not a particular person. Having been properly substituted for, Stick is out of the lineup, BJ is in the lineup and according to the scorebook held by the home team, that position (example: 8th place hitter in lineup made last out, 8th place hitter is the runner on second base}

It is BJ that cannot be substituted for or replaced with a courtesy runner until he reaches third base. Rule in place to prevent a team for replacing super slow runner with fastest player on team with a courtesy runner or a substitute depending on their player availability.
June 4, 2021
JimmyG
Men's 55
48 posts
So if they anticipated a potential tie and substituted BJ for Stick in the bottom of the 7th because BJ is way faster than Stick then they have just circumvented the purpose of the rule. I do not know the correct answer but I would think that the intent of the rule would be that Stick has to run. The rule states "last batter", not 'last batter position".
June 4, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
T2.. I disagree with you.. the wording of the rule does not mention position in the lineup, it specifically says the "last batter of the previous inning" .. which unfortunately for them they are stuck with stick at 2B lol
June 4, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
also meant to add the EFFECT: the substitution of the MUCH FASTER BJ would be part of the .. "etc."

: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner
June 4, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
BJ - No, once the substitution is made, he is officially in the lineup. He represents that slot in the batting order, he takes his position as the runner at second base. This player cannot be substituted for or afforded a courtesy runner until he reaches third base. If the 8th place hitter made the last out, the 9th place hitter is first up in the extra inning and the player that is officially in the line up, in the home teams scorebook (considered the official scorebook) who was properly inserted takes his position on second place. The original, substituted player is officially out of the game.

You have a couple of cronies on this Sr forum that often comment, call on them and see how they interrupt the written rule.
June 4, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
T2... normally I would agree with you on substitutions but not with the specific wording of the tie breaker rule ..

If you are correct then SSUSA has a poorly worded rule specifying that the runner MUST be the "last batter" (not batting position) of the previous inning and they should remove the part of not be able to be substituted until they reach 3B

one other question what if the stick had stayed in the game playing defense until they got 2 outs then knowing that he ran like a turtle sub'd him out?? ... in your version of the rule it would be legal

I believe that is 1 reason the rule is worded the way it is... we will have to wait for DD/D2 to chime in after his nap...lol
June 4, 2021
Guppy7325
8 posts
You missed the part about inserted into the line up in the bottom of the inning.. He played defense, which by rule he has satisfied the intent of the rule.. He wasn’t inserted at the top of the 8th.. BJ is the runner on 2nd…
June 12, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
BJ - Did you get your buddy, DD, to clarify this one for you?
June 12, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
T2.. yes DD was swamped last weekend at a tour. but he did send me this reply

Our interpretation (and it HAS come up) is that the ITB runner is the the batter with the last completed at bat when the last out of the previous half-inning for the team was made ... It is the actual PLAYER and not who might happen to be sitting in that batting-order slot following a substitution ... The reason is that we do not want to have the shenanigans happen that could result from putting a jack-rabbit in the order to defeat the intent of the ITB rule ...

so unfortunately for their team slow as a snail stick goes back in and no CR or substitute can replace him until he advances to 3rd
June 12, 2021
Dbax
Men's 65
1971 posts
What if that player is injured? Also does anyone know the MLB rule?
June 12, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
BJ - I don't agree with the answer that DD gave you, there is no ruling in print to support whereas there is support for a proper substitute ALREADY in the lineup when the visiting team takes the field, there are no shenanigans because a tied game at the end of the 7th inning hasn't even had an opportunity to take place yet. i think you both might need to take a second look.

June 12, 2021
B.J.
904 posts
5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE
Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed,
assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base. EFFECT: If the last batter of the
previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner

T2... read the rule again.. specifically it states.. The runner is to be the LAST BATTER of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed.. SSUSA wanted THE PERSON WHO BATTED not a substitute to take the bag

I would agree with you IF THE WORDING WAS... the runner is the last POSITION in the batting order of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed

also many years ago this same scenario came up in a tour. I was working in SO. Fla. both the tour. dir. and UIC were called over and they DID NOT allow the sub. to be placed on 2b, they put the last batter on 2b
June 12, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3516 posts
T2 ... I'm not sure what language you might be reading, but the specific language in the Official SSUSA Rulebook (see below) is quite clear as to who returns to 2nd base at the start of the ITB ½-inning at bat [Empasis added] ... It says the "..last batter.." and not "..whomever might occupy the place in the batting order where some other batter may or may not have been in the lineup at the end of the previous inning.." ... We certainly respect your opinion, but we would be remiss in not pointing out that your opinion is counter to the specific language of the Rulebook, and accordingly, is simply and totally incorrect ...
__________

§5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE
Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed, assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base.."

June 13, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
DD - I certainly didn't write the rule (5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE) that we are discussing, but i have an opinion of the intention of the rule as well as the application of the rule. The rule again verbatim from the Rule Book _

5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE
Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed, assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base. EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner

To bring structure and a means for always supplying the same structure and fairness to the extra inning method of finishing a game, i feel as if the rules makers intended to make sure that the same scenario is always followed in placing a runner at second base to begin the extra inning. What better way of simplifying than to take the last batter (not player) of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed and having him to assume the runners position on second base.

Natural progression in the game with the next batter hitting to start off the extra inning, just as usual. Example: Sixth batter made last out, seventh batter is lead off in the first extra inning, sixth batter is the runner positioned at start of inning at second base.

Here is where we differ in our interpretation of the rule, i contend if the sixth batter was substituted for whatever reason, most typically defensive prowess for the bottom of the (7th or last) inning, this substitute is now officially the sixth batter in the lineup.

The rules makers were very savvy to include "No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base." But IF a substitution is made and per 4.6, 4.7, and 7.1.B the previously substituted batter (sixth place batter in the official score book) is no longer in the game, the substitute that was inserted into the sixth position in the batting order is officially in the game and he is the runner positioned as the second base runner to begin the extra inning of play in accordance with the rule "5.4(2) • INTERNATIONAL TIE-BREAKER RULE"

I respect anyone's opinion as well as their interpretation, but i request that this to be supported by RULE, not be anyone's interpretation as i have referenced applicable rules for proper substitution that i feel confirm my position.

In the 2018 SSUSA Managers Guide i see there are thirteen SSUSA National Directors and nine SSUSA State & Regional UIC's. I feel that there should be a final determination from the highest level as to how this rule is applied in a game situation and would enlist your help in coming to this final determination. thanks in advance for your help, turning2

June 13, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3516 posts
T2 ... While I appreciate the prolific nature of your argument, it does not negate the SPECIFIC LANGUAGE of Rule §5.4(2) ... The three critical words, "..the last batter..", are not subject to even the slightest amount of ambiguity and, accordingly, absolutely control the ITB situation, your personal interpretation notwithstanding ... You remain incorrect as our rulebook is currently structured ... Rule modifications occur only once a year, at the annual convention in late November ...
June 13, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
DD - until such time as you, or anyone else can show me that a properly substituted player, by rule, is not that runner, I will not give in to your interpretation of the rule.

You’re in a position to solicit the input from all of those SSUSA personnel, of which you are one of approx two dozen that I referenced above to bring finality to our disagreement.

I’m not arguing just for the sake of argument and I don’t see you doing that either. Since I’m firm in my stance, as are you, bring in the others and if you’re right so be it, and if they see it my my, so be it also.

To reiterate your last post, three important words “the last batter” who made the last out, who was substituted for according to Rule, and now is a different PLAYER but the same #6 BATTER in the official rule book as per my example.

June 13, 2021
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3516 posts
You seem to be a "..gotta have the last word.." kind of guy, so we'll anxiously await your next post before closing this thread to end this exercise in cyclical redundancy... But until and unless the language of Rulebook §5.4(2) is modified by the National Rules Committee, you appear unlikely to agree with the SSUSA's consistent and proper handling the ITB process, which matters not one bit ...
June 13, 2021
Turning2
Men's 70
104 posts
DD - I’m not quite as much of a “gotta have the last word” kind of guy as you are since you’ve used this same expression in posts right before you announce that you have heard enough and you will close the thread.

I’ll pursue with the SSUSA hierarchy and copy you on all correspondence. Here is an elementary question for you: how do you justify as an umpire or official of a league by replacing a properly substituted player by a coach with a replaced player no longer in the game, You would be taking the reins out of the hands of a coach’s decision on how he runs his team. What rule are you using to usurp the coach’s authority for making a personnel substitution. That by itself is justification and reasoning to understand the intent of the Rule 5.4(2) is to provide a repeatable starting point for the tie-break rule to begin, always with the last position in the batting order to be the designated runner and as normal, the lead-off hitter for the next inning follows the last out.

You have the power but I hope you don’t squelch openness of fruitful debate. I could be wrong in my position, if shown by Rule, I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong.
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