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Online now: 5 members: CDNSmitty, CowboyVis90, Golfman, Swany20, TABLE SETTER 11; 99 anonymousDiscussion: illegal courtesy runner
| Posted | Discussion |
| July 26, 2020 alan--23 7 posts | illegal courtesy runner we had this come up in league play the other day bases loaded 2 outs 2 runs in, a long inning, B/R on 1st asked for a CR, the runner coming in was acknowledged by the umpire, the next batter up hits a double 2 runs score and CR ends up on 3rd, the 3B now remembers that the CR had batted earlier in the inning and got a CR making him an illegal CR, the umpire checks his scorecard and admits he missed the call which would have been the 3rd out, do the runs score? I know it was an appeal play and the runs had scored before the appeal but the CR should have been called out by the umpire upon touching 1B and it would have been the end of the inning |
| July 26, 2020 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | It's not conmpletely clear to me from your fact pattern description whether the appeal was made immediatly after the batter had doubled in the two runs and the illegal CR ended up on 3rd AND before the first pitch to the next batter ... If so, we have a valid and timely appeal pursuant to Rulebook §8.5(5), meaning he's the the 3rd out of the inning and the runs are off the board ... If the appeal is made after at least one intervening pitch to the next batter, the illegal CR is still out, but the runs stay on the board as a timing issue related to the timing of the appeal ... __________ §8.5(5) • COURTESY RUNNER OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire before play resumes. A courtesy runner may enter the game only prior to the first pitch to any batter. A courtesy runner is in the game when he touches the base. If a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base and no other courtesy runner is allowed. The original runner may not return as the runner. An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter. |
| July 26, 2020 alan--23 7 posts | yes it was before a pitch to the next batter, thx for the answer |
| July 27, 2020 coop3636 514 posts | Dave If the illegal CR is not noticed before the batter doubled, the 2 runs will count. The CR will be called out (3rd out, inning over)if appealed BEFORE the next batter,(when 3B remembered) but the runs that scored on the previous batter will still count. You can't go back AFTER a batter has his turn at bat. You can only do something BEFORE he bats. The only thing that can happen AFTER a batter hits, is that someone appeals THAT batter being illegal (and appeals before the first pitch of the next batter) Am I correct or am I reading something wrong? Brett |
| July 28, 2020 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Brett ... You didn't "miss" a thing in focusing on that precise issue ... It was a topic of significant discussion/debate at the National Rules Committee that year, and the end result was the addition of the "continuing violation" language of the last full sentence of that Rulebook provision ... If memory serves, at least a majority of the Committee believed, and voted accordingly, to have a remedy available to negate the results (by legal appeal) of any play involving a continuing violation illegal CR ... There was, as I recall, one fairly consistent opinion: The CR very likely knew he was illegal and that team should not be rewarded for what transpired and for which the defense might well have played it differently had they recognized it earlier, including, in this case, the end of the half-inning at bat! ... Who knows on that one? ... Thanks, good luck and play and BE safe next week in Texas! ... |
| July 28, 2020 B.J. 1105 posts | Dave, I'm still not sure on what you ended up with for an answer with the continuing violation.. you say ( If memory serves, at least a majority of the Committee believed, and voted accordingly, to have a remedy available to negate the results (by legal appeal) of any play involving a continuing violation illegal CR) what is the remedy?? I do not see it in rule book.. I know ASA has rule 10 for umpires being able to fix an error BUT they have to do it BEFORE a pitch to next batter |
| July 29, 2020 B.J. 1105 posts | Dave, I'm still not sure what the answer is on if the 2 runs score? your original answer was no they are taken off the board I agree with Coop a pitch was made to the next batter.. I don't see how you can un-ring the bell of the next batter getting a double and scoring 2 runs.. please post what the Committee came up with on a remedy to have available to negate the results of the 2 runs (by legal appeal) |
| July 29, 2020 stick8 1991 posts | In the scenario Alan-23 posted I side with coop3636 on this one. In order for the 2 runs not to count they would’ve had to catch it before the first pitch of the next batter. Since that batter got a base hit, too late. But the CR is a continuous violation so he can be appealed. In Alan—23 situation, I would have 3 outs and the runs count. Here’s one I had 3 years ago. In the 2nd inning Team A puts in a CR in. He ends up scoring the fifth run. Two innings later the scorekeeper for Team B calls to my attention that the CR from Team A used two innings prior was not listed on the scorecard. What’s the ruling? |
| July 29, 2020 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Hi guys ... The distinction I draw from your analysis, and which leads me to a differing conclusion, is that you are erroneously in my respectful view, making reference to a batter, and maybe even two, when in fact this is all about the illegal CR ... After extensive debate in the NRC a few years back, the "continuing violation" language was added and the remedy clearly spelled out as it relates to the illegal CR should he score ... He may be "rung up" and the run taken off the board at any time up to the next intervening pitch ... Let's say he scored in this instance behind the other two runners ... On what basis do you rationalize taking his run off the board pursuant to the specific remedy, yet allowing the two runners ahead of him to count when it was all one single play? ... You shouldn't, and that specific fact pattern was in the NRC debate at the time ... You must ignore which batter may be at the plate and focus on what is actually happening with the illegal CR in a continuing violation ... Ongoing illegal status, caught in the act, and declared out AND, if no intervening pitch, unwind the play just like to specific language indicates ... Had there been an intervening pitch, that "play" stands on its own as new activity and the runs stay on the board ... I still have an inning-ending out and no runs counting from the play ... |
| July 30, 2020 B.J. 1105 posts | Dave, thx for the well explained answer... and yes it does explain clearly what happens with the illegal CR... "BUT"... it never gives ANY explanation anywhere in the rule on what to do IF there were to be a couple of singles or walks and runs score.. in theory you could actually have 3 consecutive singles have the CR finally score and per your explanation then have a legal appeal before the pitcher makes a pitch to the 4th batter and all the runs would be wiped off the board... also if that were to happen do these batters come up again in the next inning since they should not have batted in the 1st place in the future I hope you and the board of umpires will look at adding a reference/explanation in the rule book for ALL umpires to be able to read and comprehend your reasoning behind amending a rule.. remember we don't all go to Vegas and are not privy to your discussions and debates |
| July 30, 2020 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | B.J. ... I think your theoretical may have wandered a bit far ... The rule change was enacted to address one simple "problem" ... There was an increasing frequency of offensive teams taking the "low risk / high reward" gamble for 5-10 seconds to get an illegal CR in the game and then have the next intervening pitch, in effect, convert him to "legal" by the expiration of appeal rights ... Very few of our events have official scorekeepers, and many times there may not be even one experienced scorekeeper and "book" accompanying either team ... It is a natural environment for one team gaining an unfair advantage over another ... In the example given, and that's why I mentioned an assumption on the absence of an intervening pitch, the scoring of the runs would not vest until the next pitch so long as the illegal CR was in the game ... At that theoretical next pitch, they DO vest and the illegal CR remains at risk of discovery and being called out ... Thanks! |
| July 30, 2020 B.J. 1105 posts | Dave, I'm not trying to bust your chops.... we've had this discussion many times before... I am very literal as to the wording of a rule I realize it has been several years since I stopped traveling and working SS Tournaments (mainly because of the back room politics) but I seem to remember as the HP umpire I received an official score card / line up from each team and on that card I was instructed to keep the per inning score and then on the back of the card or on a little note pad I also was to keep track of all CR's coming into the game ... I WAS THE UMPIRE AND OFFICIAL SCORE KEEPER ... yes after each 1/2 inning I would double check the score with both teams scorekeepers ( if available) and then after the game I had to turn the official score cards back into you the Tour. Dir. ... to me this is where the rule doesn't make sense per your answers of no official score keepers... RULE 8.5(5) specifically states that it is to be an AUTOMATIC CALL by the umpire as soon as the illegal CR attains the bag ... how can that automatic call ever happen if the umpire is not (taught/instructed) to be responsible and keep track of the CR's.. the original scenario by alan 23 did bring up a good question... yes the rule does say it's a continuing violation... but again there is no explanation or reference given in the rule book as to what happens for runs scored before the infraction is caught for us umpires that do not attend your rules committee meetings... I do no not think my theoretical scenario is to far fetched.. many times I have umpired games especially lower rated teams that string together a few singles in a row... so if in "theory" your umpire was not tracking the CR's as he should be and the offense with bases loaded 2 outs and the illegal CR on 1st strung together 3 singles and the CR finally scored and then he is discovered to be illegal by proper appeal of the defense prior to the first pitch to the next (4th) batter per the rule ... do you still say that none of the runs count?? ... Thx BJ |
| July 30, 2020 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | B.J. ... In the real world, if only about 7% of the umpires and team bookkeepers we have were [1] as meticulous and competent as you are, [2] we wouldn't have any problems at all anywhere ... [1] They're not [2] so we do ... Stay safe! |
