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Discussion: 65s to 1-1 or not 1-1

Posted Discussion
Nov. 13, 2019
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
65s to 1-1 or not 1-1
Just got back from Ft Myers 65 AAA
Played 7 and only 2 went the full 7 innings.
I know this has been a recent topic about some wanting to start with a 1-1 count while many like the 4-3.
Just curious what others have experienced in some of the more recent tournaments and whether peoples opinions have changed and may be interested in going 1-1.

Yes, I am aware of the procedure to suggest it to the rules committee

Am also aware of several things that lead to the slow play.

Rich, Jags 65AAA
Nov. 14, 2019
Shark
Men's 60
96 posts
Just an FYI....that our team in Fort Myers played 9 games with a 1-1 count with a waste foul and only had 1 game that did not go the full 7 innings. We are a 60 AAA team and are in favor of the 1-1 count.
Shark
Nov. 14, 2019
Wood_1966
Men's 55
164 posts
I do not understand the thought process of sticking to the old method in the 65+ divisions. We have all played for years with the 1-1 system and it does help games progress a bit quicker. I would rather play 7 innings in the 1-1 system the 5 or 6 with the old school full 4-3.

I have even played in tourneys that you start with a 3-2 count, 1 to waste. These essentially 1 pitch tourneys have been some of the most fun one's I have played in, but I am in now way advocating going to that system....
Nov. 16, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
I agree it is about time to play with the 1-1 count as most of us have played this since we started playing softball. I wrote to a Senior staff member who I respect in past week and asked him to please pass on my request to change rules to 1-1. I continue to believe with each batter watching first pitch it takes at least 10 minutes from a scheduled game. I was excited when vote was done in past year or so and 65 teams out voted for the rule to go to 1-1. I guess it was decided that even though more voted for 1-1 count it was not a high enough percentage. I still believe if a group votes and has a higher percentage of votes than it should pass. Maybe I am wrong. I love this game and am so thankful for Terry and group stating this program so we can continue to be on the field. I am blessed to be a part of several teams that have won triple crowns and worlds and will never forget that memory as long as God permits me to have these memories. At 66 time is running out for myself and others my age and I can only hope that I get the chance to play with 1-1 count. I enjoyed playing in this past weeks 65 major division, and really am proud of each team I played for being great sports. I also want to thank the Texas team for helping me when I was drilled in leg by a line drive.Never saw it but you guys were so nice about it and I loved you team saying a prayer at end of game. Bless each player and I look forward to seeing you in future. Hugs Gary Ingle
Nov. 16, 2019
garyheifner
615 posts
I have been led to believe that when a vote is thrown out there, the west coast teams seem to prefer the 0-0 while midwest and eastward prefers the 1-1.

The west coast teams seem to carry the day. My local league uses a 0-1. The pitchers don't throw a meat ball on the 1st 2 anyway. It gets serious on the 2-1 count. I prefer the 1-1 all the way. With the 1`-1 count a batter can't afford to take a close pitch while the pitcher can only afford to waster 1 pitch.. If the batter takes a 2nd strike, Does he think the next will be better?
Nov. 16, 2019
Jawood
Men's 50
937 posts
Really k man? Since the 1 and 1 count was implemented two seasons ago, we have not had 5 games total that have failed to go 7 innings.
Nov. 17, 2019
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
Jawood, all I can tell you is from what we experienced and I have in the score book I kept. The scores are posted from session one of the winter nationals and the only ones that went the distance were our 2nd seeding game and our last game, a wild affair that went 8 innings where we had to settle for 3rd place. The other 5 only went 6 innings. I guess time flies when you're having fun!
Nov. 20, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
I want to thank several of you who have called or sent me e-mail about the 1-1 situation. The support has been very clear that most of notes to me have been in favor. I have promised those that sent me info that I would again write the staff Member from Senior softball who I know will make sure my concern will be heard. To be honest I have not been informed as today about my Email to Senior Softball person but I am well aware he has been busy covering Phoenix Winter Worlds and should soon return back to CA.His contact in past has always been respectful and I am grateful for his and all Senior staff. How wonderful it is that we can at our age continue to play the game of softball, The rewards no matter what the rules make it possible for myself and all others who participate to enjoy the game, make new friends and I hope present a positive message and thankfulness to the softball community while we compete for whatever time we have left before God leads us home. Thanks GI
Nov. 20, 2019
baseballbill
137 posts
The 1&1 count kills wasted dead time, more action with less standing around. End result, more innings played.
Nov. 20, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
I grew up playing with the “old school” and have no problem with it. You want to speed the game up stop throwing the ball around after an out and get in and out of the dugout and find a catcher who actually can catch the ball.

Nov. 20, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
Just to update I looked on my G Mail ansd saw a note from senior softball that they have seen my note. Thanks so much for that. I know I am in Vegas 1st weekend in Dec but not sure if meeting are held than or not. GI
Nov. 20, 2019
garyheifner
615 posts
NYGNYY

I play outfield and pitch or catch when needed. It is very easy for the catcher to catch the ball and return it to the pitcher if the pitcher can actually hit the mat as it bounces up to U. If he misses the mat a bunch, the ball takes off in whatever direction the slope of the batters box has been graded.

Don't forget the fielders basically stand around for 7 innings and move only when the ball is hit in their direction. The catcher often bends over 60-70 times a game to get the ball. Take that times 7-9 games in a tournament. A little hard on the back.

P.S. 1-1 count=s less bending over.

Buy your catcher dinner as he is probably the MVP of your team.
Nov. 21, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
garyheifner---Totally missed my point with your definition of what a catcher does...my point was there are other ways to speed the game up to get 7 innings in if that is really your concern. LOL Happy Thanksgiving
Nov. 21, 2019
garyheifner
615 posts
Sorry, I got it totally wrong. I kinda now know what it feels like to be a Democrat.
Nov. 21, 2019
TimMcElroy
842 posts
garyheifner- HILARIOUS ! Way to keep it light.
Nov. 22, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
Amen to that garyheifner! Enjoy the holidays
Nov. 22, 2019
Fabe
Men's 60
444 posts
U may never see that first good pitch again! Unless many walks are occurring I have the mind set to hit the first good pitch hard! Phoenix Winterworlds with well in the 60 majors with the 1n1 count! Have a bless Thanksgiving everyone! Aloha, Fabe
Nov. 22, 2019
MurrayW
Men's 65
197 posts
It's slow pitch softball. How bad can the next strike be to hit?

But I agree, no matter if I get 2 or 3 strikes, I will hit the first pitch that I see in the zone where I hit the ball the best.
Nov. 22, 2019
Gavin5
Men's 70
29 posts
I support the 1:1 starting pitch count for 75s division, and in fact all divisions. We just completed 7 games at Winter Worlds with 0:0 count. Our team batted only the following number of innings; 5,5,6,6,7,6 and 7. All were 65 (pool) or 70(bracket)minute clocks. We are not getting or reps at the plate even when we win 6 of those 7 games.
It's the older divisions that need 1:1 even more than younger divisions due to their natural slower pace.
And getting them to hustle more between innings aint going to happen. Need to reduce to catcher-to-pitcher throws.
Nov. 27, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
I had batting practice last weekend with a 65 team that played 60's last season. I asked them how they liked the change to 0-0 count. Overall of the guys I spoke with they do not like the 0-0 count and are hopeful to see this rule changed this Dec at meetings. I had hoped to get to meetings but understand I will miss as I get to Vegas on Friday after school week from this Friday. I look forward to hearing how 1-1 count will be presented and believe all age groups should now have this rule. Thanks to all , Happy Thanksgiving. GI
Nov. 27, 2019
chico senior
Men's 60
132 posts
GI - You either have some misprints or some mistakes. The 60’s start with a 1 and 1 count. As far as the older divisions it has not been agreed to yet. I’m sure it will come up at this years meeting. They have slowly been adding age groups to the 1 and 1 count. Maybe this year the 65’s will be added.
Nov. 27, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
Thanks sorry for not writing it right. Now you know why I am a school Counselor not a Teacher HA
Dec. 5, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
Has anyone heard anything from Vegas meeting this week about the 1-1 count for 65 and up? Hope it was considered.
Dec. 6, 2019
SSUSA Staff
3225 posts
Rules Committee Sessions concluded yesterday (Thursday) and the Official Minutes will be presented to the Committee for review and presumed approval today ... It's likely they will be published here this afternoon ...
Dec. 7, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
The rules committee voted 12 to 0 in favor of changing all ages to 1 & 1 based upon their recent meeting. It also commented that it was up for discussion based upon what the directors had heard throughout the 2019 season. Congratulations to those lobbyists. Nice quiet victory! When the 60’s changed a few years back it was a very different discussion and debate. I played in Mesquite, Las Vegas, Reno, Rocky Mt, Vegas and Phoenix and NEVER heard the 1 & 1 count mentioned amongst my team or others. Never once did someone on the field say hey we should be playing with a 1&1 count
Just wanted you to know. This sounds like Chicago politics at its best



Dec. 7, 2019
GI
Men's 60
226 posts
Bless you Senior softball. Free at last free at last Thank God almighty Free at last. GI
Dec. 8, 2019
JBTexas
Men's 70
417 posts
I maybe the only one but I'm disappointed the rule was changed for the 70 to 1-1, never heard anyone of the group or older(besides major-plus players)that wanted the rule change, but I guess it is what it is or we will fine something else to do.
Dec. 8, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
JB Tx I am with you 100%. Guess that’s a ? for Don Brooks who brought it up or GI since he knew who to write to based upon his posts. You would think that more important things regarding our game would be addressed such as pitcher safety (screens) etc.
Dec. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
There were five (5) separately submitted written requests to the Committee to adopt the "1-1 Count" across all ages and divisions of play ... There was also one written request for standardizing the count, either everyone at "0-0" or everyone at "1-1", with no stated preference which way ... I was not present for the 2019 Sessions (on the "no-fly" and "DL" through at least the end of the calendar year) so can't speak to what the actual discussion might have been ... Those who took the time to properly submit a valid comment/request or appeared in person to lobby on the topic were apparently very persuasive ... The vote was unanimous at 12-0-0 ...
Dec. 8, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
DD as always thanks for the follow up and information. 5 requests seem to be a very small sample size to say the least representing all age groups greater than 65. Which makes the 12 to 0 vote even more ridiculous. When the last time this board heard from 5 folks and made a 12 to 0 vote?? This was well planned my friend. Congratulations


Dec. 8, 2019
JBTexas
Men's 70
417 posts
Dave, Didn't know we had to submit a request to keep a rule, we thought survey from a couple years back pretty much summed up the over 70 opinion on the subject. Hope you get to feeling better soon.
Dec. 8, 2019
DieselDan
Men's 70
503 posts
What JBTexas just posted.
Dec. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
Here's a bit of historical factual background ... Support for the "1-1" count at the 65+ age group is not new ... The last time there was a formal membership survey on the "1-1" count was in December, 2017 ... The tipping point then was at the 70+ age group ... The 65+ age group slightly favored the "1-1" count then by 53.5% to 46.5% and the 70+ was slightly opposed to it by 53.2% to 46.8% ...

It doesn't get posted here more than a few dozen times a year, but the National Rules Committee encourages written communication and personal appearances and specifically ignores Message Board commentary for Agenda purposes ... When there's a hot topic, like this one, posting something clever here isn't going to effect or deter change ... There were public participants attending in person ranging from the East Coast to the Pacific Northwest this year ... All sessions were open to the public and the Committee Chair allowed public participation, even during the actual voting sessions ...

We're OK with the Complaint Department being active here, that's what this forum is all about ... But the Action Department was last week in Las Vegas ... The 2020 National Rules Committee Sessions will be at the Annual Convention a year from now in Sacramento ... There's plenty of time to draft something for proper submission since we don't make rules changes mid-season ...

Dec. 8, 2019
DieselDan
Men's 70
503 posts
But, it seems Dave, "a hot topic, like this one", probably should have had another survey.
Dec. 8, 2019
NYGNYY
182 posts
Thanks again DD for the feedback and facts. I thought you used this message board specific to 1& 1 count back in December 2017. I once was told to never assume. I never knew this forum was ignored by NRC. One might consider sending out those agenda items in some other format for most to see prior to the meeting. Maybe your newsletter and give all a chance to formally respond to the NRC agenda items. I am done. Thanks again for listening. Feel free to pass along to the NCR
Dec. 8, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
Dan ... I guess anything can be "surveyed" as often as it makes sense ... But at the end of the day, someone has to make a decision or we just end up with paralysis by analysis ... We have done multiple "1-1" count preference surveys (and disclosed the results here) and there is one constant: In each one, the tipping point has gotten older each time, simply because of the aging of the voting population ...

NYGNYY ... We have never moved anything from this forum directly to Committee Agenda status ... This is a generally unregulated anonymous free-for-all and the NRC only deals with identifiable written input or personal appearance ...

Dec. 9, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I thought about submitting something in writing, but then I figured why waste my time. Just common sense stuff too. However, it more than seems that ego gets in the way. If there is this much bickering over a 1-1 count...I find I hit better with a 1-1 count because the pitcher will more often try to come in a fat pitch early especially if the first pitch is a ball.
Dec. 10, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3827 posts
Wayne 37 ... Here's how it works ... The Chair of the NRC accumulates every item of identifiable written correspondence we receive for the entire year leading up to the annual Committee sessions ... She summarizes them all by category/issue and provides each member of the NRC with that "potential" Agenda about three days before the sessions begin ... While not every item is going to seem significant to every interested party, they are all included because they are certainly significant to the person who takes the time to submit it ...

The Committee then goes through each item (12+ pages this year) for a short discussion/comment opportunity and to determine if there is a likely motion and a second to add it to the final Agenda for action ... Also during this phase, public members attending are acknowledged and provided the chance to discuss what they are advocating, most times about something already on the list, but not always ... Then it's back to the start for the "working sessions" ... We strongly encourage you to write it up and submit it, regardless what "it" may be ... That's a guarantee you will be heard ... Only posting it here, regardless of the topic and how many times, is a guarantee you won't ... Thanks!

Dec. 11, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I understand all that, but I continually get so much pushback on the forum with the most minute of things. I'm not trying to toot my own horn. It's just that I've been privileged to have learned so much over the years, I'm only trying to share it.

All I'm suggesting are wording changes to align SSUSA rules with all the rule sets I've read. Merely to clarify the interpretation of a few rules. I may try next time. This last time I've spent quite a bit of time in the hospital doing stem cell replacement therapy.

Hope you have a great holiday season.
Dec. 14, 2019
JBTexas
Men's 70
417 posts
After reading the official minutes of the rule committee meeting, I feel a lot better knowing it is now a 1-1 count with a courtesy foul. That should just about make everyone happy.
Dec. 14, 2019
k man
Men's 65
308 posts
Will TOC play 1-1 for 65 and above or will they use the 4-3 rule that was in effect when all teams qualified for the tournament?
Dec. 15, 2019
TimMcElroy
842 posts
The TOC is played usi g the previous year's rules because that is how each team earned its berth. So, 0-0 count for the Men's 65 - 85 divisions.
Dec. 16, 2019
Willy8
15 posts
As a 70's player, I have used the 1-1 count with a curtesy foul in our leagues for at least the last 25 years. If going to 1-1 count means we get to play a full 7 innings, and I assume it will, our team is all for it. The time limit and getting to play only 5-6 innings was hard to take, especially since we are paying big bucks for travel, hotel, equipment, food, entry fee, etc. We would like our games to go the full seven
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