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Discussion: Red meat for umpire types

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Oct. 30, 2019
TimMcElroy
820 posts
Red meat for umpire types
Many of us have an opinion on the interference call that was made in the 7th inning of the World Series game last night.

Here's my question to the forum- Does your opinion on that play change if this occurs in an SSUSA game where the double base is used at 1st?
Oct. 30, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
With the double "safety base" in play, my view is that's an automatic interference/out call, doesn't require a NY Command Center review and probably doesn't set the table for a highly entertaining Manager ejection ... No-brainer category would be my analysis ...
Oct. 30, 2019
tattooball
756 posts
The rule is pretty clear on that call. Problem is they didn't enforce it much ever so now it looks bad.
Oct. 30, 2019
TimMcElroy
820 posts
^^^ Agreed. Much like the out of the box call, it is normally the umpire that correctly enforces rules taking heat because the other ump(s) do not.
Oct. 30, 2019
cw
Men's 65
72 posts
Kyle Schwarber from the Cubs tweeted about using the double bag after that play last night. Let's not forget the double home plates to eliminate that "catcher blocking the runner from home plate" call...LOL!!!
Oct. 30, 2019
stick8
1951 posts
Tim to answer the question if there were two bases Turner would be automatically be out for touching the white bag.
That being said I’m not sure why the umpires went to the headsets, it’s not a reviewable play. It’s a judgement call
Oct. 30, 2019
B.J.
973 posts
Tim, if a runner failed to run on the foul side of the base path (for no reason) in softball for the last 30' of the path my call would be interference if in my judgement the fielder had to alter their throw either over or around the runner when trying to make a play

8.3 • BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT
D. When he runs outside the running lane and, in the umpire’s judgment, interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base; however, he may run outside the three-foot lane to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball.
Oct. 30, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Don't get me started on THAT one stick8 ... Ha! ... There is NO prohibition against touching the white bag ... The SSUSA rule does, however, require the batter-runner to touch "some portion" of the orange bag! ... It started with an "out" call on a guy who stepped on the center line, touching both sections, between them and was (incorrectly) called out for doing so ... That was a lengthy and interesting debate a few years ago in the National Rules Committee sessions! ...
Oct. 30, 2019
TimMcElroy
820 posts
I whispered "what the firetruck" at least 10 times that day.
Oct. 30, 2019
B.J.
973 posts
I don't have a horse in the race but in my OP it was a bad call because in baseball even if a runner is in foul territory going down the line he must still enter into fair territory in order to touch the base.. unless you want to break an ankle hitting the outer edge of the base

I thought the defense was rewarded for a bad throw by the pitcher.. the throw was definitely on the inside of the base and pulled the 1st basemans glove into the path of the runner.. the runner did what he was SUPPOSED TO BE ALLOWED TO DO his foot hit in the middle of the bag

stick, as far as the play not being reviewable and it being a judgement call.. I thought that was a BS/copout answer from MLB to say it was not reviewable because it was a judgement call... why now is this particular play not reviewable but out and safe calls are are reviewed many times every game... If I'm not mistaken they are judgement calls also


Oct. 30, 2019
B.J.
973 posts
Dave, just to rile you up...lol... years ago I was one of the umpires who also used to call runners out if they hit both bags.. again as you know I'm very literal when reading the rules and this was before SSUSA added the "much needed" explanation to the the rule.. (The batter-runner simultaneously touching both portions of the double bag is permitted).. the rule said and still does say that the runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory .. well my reasoning was that their is no portion of the white bag in foul territory so therefore the runner only had the safety bag to hit.. also since it's called a "SAFETY BAG" why would I allow a runner to just be able to hit outer edge of it and also the white bag at the same time.. it's suppose to be there to avoid collisions





Oct. 30, 2019
Sisavic
190 posts
Dave, consider adding this "When all else fails" rule. I was playing 1st base in a local rec game when the batter hit a grounder to the 3rd baseman who threw the ball to me on multiple bounces (we were playing 80s after all). His throw was a bit off-line on the home base side. I moved toward the ball, straddled the 1st base line, and reached down for the ball. It hit my glove with a slap at the exact moment that the batter-runner hit my glove and dislodged the ball. The batter-runner, the ball, and I met on the spot between the two 1st base bags and about a foot toward home plate.

After the usual animated discussion with the volunteer umpire, the runner, the 1st baseman, and both managers, someone pointed out that there were two attorneys - one on each side - and they would adjudicate the issue with calm and objectivity. Ten minutes later as the animation turned into a full length movie, a wise older gentleman suggested that we adopt the "Flip" rule - heads or tails. Everyone agreed and the movie ended. We intend to add the "Flip" rule to our non-existent rec league rules.
Oct. 30, 2019
DieselDan
Men's 70
500 posts
Turner knew what he was doing last night. His left foot touched the grass several times on his way to first. Then after the game he says he didn't do anything wrong and was just running hard to first. Well, go back and play the videos of his previous trips to first.
Oct. 30, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Sisavic ... I LIKE that auxiliary "flip" rule ... I've actually used it once and threatened to use it a second time over the years .. I used it in a 6-team three-game-guarantee bracket for the 40-Masters at 10:30 PM at Big League Dreams one night in the elimination bracket where the first losers' game means nothing other than determine who they get for the next "dance" ... The four teams thought getting to the Las Vegas "Strip" before midnight was better than being at BLD playing a relatively meaningless game ... We played those two games in 10 seconds using a flipping coin twice and they were gone and happy about it! ... The threat was in the 9th inning of a 40-Major seeding game and 20 other teams were standing around because it was the last game before seeding ... I told them we would play the 10th inning by coin toss: winner of the toss would "win" the 10th 1-0 ... They handled it in the 9th ...

B.J. ... The former "white/orange bag" rule was perfectly fine as previously written ... However, you and a few other umpires decided to improperly add an imaginary word to the rule, changing it's meaning significantly ... That word was "only" or "exclusively" in back of "..touch the orange bag.." ... Is the wording better now? ... It probably is ... Despite that rule clarification being required to prevent it, on-the-fly, make it up as you go interpretations by certain umpires continue to plague tournament directors too often ... The newer hot topic today is umpires changing the stepping out of the batter's box rule by, apparently, adding some personal "by how much?" criteria ... Cheers! ...

Oct. 30, 2019
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1386 posts
Dave, please close your eyes for a moment. B.J., the orange bag was added for safety; it seemed so simple. Then somehow every association added their own set of rules on other things related to it. So no wonder people and umpires get confused. You and I both try to know our rules and talk about them to properly enforce them no matter what association we work. I work a lot of games for an association with my favorite double base rule. There are no automatic outs at 1B; it is a live ball appeal. I can call time before they even have a chance to think about it, and they really don't know the rule anyway. They also have a rule that I don't like that if the throw takes the fielder away from the bag that they may use the orange bag to get an out if that is where the throw takes them. Also I did not watch the play but will now, but if you said that you would have called him out for interference, you have my vote.
Oct. 30, 2019
mck71
264 posts
I believe what most have stated, the rule was "applied" correctly as "written" but the "spirit" of what actually happened made the call "unfortunate".

And MAN was Davey hot in between innings, does anyone thing that the initial umpire (believe crew chief) actually puts his hands on him first ever so slightly? lol

I of course was happy that Rendon hit that HR as I am sure MLB was as well, let's play 7, excellent series! :-)
Oct. 30, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Agreed, Mike ... Great series ... Question of the moment is whether or not the Nationals can protect the ROAD-FIELD ADVANTAGE ... Hasn't been a single local team fan go home happy yet ... Very strange!
Oct. 31, 2019
mck71
264 posts
And the ROAD-FIELD ADVANTAGE WINS, UNBELIEVABLE!
Oct. 31, 2019
DieselDan
Men's 70
500 posts
Nancy

Doing soccer is similar, at least when I was still doing several sports. FIFA, NCAA, and HS soccer each had their differences. It's like the powers to be want their own spin on rules.
Oct. 31, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Mike ... I was listening to the radio coverage of the first couple of innings on the way home last night and they mentioned, according to the Elias Sports analysis, that in the three "major" sports with 7-game series (MLB, NBA and NHL), never had the road team won more than five games ... So seven stretches the limit on statistical odds ... Truly UNBELIEVABLE as you mentioned ...
Oct. 31, 2019
Shark
Men's 60
96 posts
Interesting that if you listened to Joe Torre's explanation on that play. He said that the "out" was called because the runner interfered with the first baseman being able to catch the ball from the throw. He said that the first baseman's glove even came off when the runner hit his hand. I thought that was a "cop out" because if you saw the replay, Trea Turner did not run too far inside the baseline as it was originally thought that was what they were protesting. Granted it was a judgement call that should not have been made and could have changed the outcome of the game if not for Rendon's homer later in that inning. It looks like that they should clarify that play in the future in their rule book.
Just my opinion,
Shark
Oct. 31, 2019
tattooball
756 posts
The rule is the rule and call was correct. It doesn't mean you have to like it. Just like getting a speeding ticket.
Oct. 31, 2019
mck71
264 posts
Dave, the way that Greinke was pitching, wasn't sure how this one would go unless they went to the bullpen which is what they did, sadly due to the "questionable" ball call on 2-1 to Soto. That call made wheels start to spin and the wheels fell off for Houston who couldn't seem to knock Scherzer out when they had him on the ropes. CRAZY game for sure, wish I would have bet on Nats after they lost the 3 games at home and were going to back watch Astro's celebrate winning at home! :-)

Shark, I am pretty sure just like the Saints - Rams game last year that this rule will be "tweaked" next year and probably be made reviewable! LOL

Kevin, I ALWAYS drive the speed limit because I don't factor that speeding ticket cost in on my "playing away from home budget" (maybe I should speak to my sponsor? ;-)
Oct. 31, 2019
stick8
1951 posts
Dave you’re correct about touching part of the orange bag (that was a hot topic!!) Turner touched the middle of the bag which, imho, would not have been part of the orange bag in our game. By the SSUSA rule, he’d be called out.
BTW, I believe it was Kyle Schwarber who tweeted something about the need for a second bag in baseball.
Interesting!,

Oct. 31, 2019
stick8
1951 posts
BJ, I share your concerns about that!! Why it’s not reviewable is a question that only those who write the rules can answer.
Here’s the major league rule on this:
“A batter is out when—in running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, he runs outside either to the right of the three foot line, or inside to the left of the foul line and in the umpires judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base in which case the ball is dead.”
There’s a follow up also. “The batter-runner Is permitted to exit the three foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base”
One would think the follow up would vindicate Turner but because he was never in the designated runners lane to begin with he was not afforded that exception. I surmise the reason the umps went to the replay is because they wanted to clarify the rule and make sure they get it right, which they actually did.
This is a case where you hate the rule but not the ruling!!
Oct. 31, 2019
garyheifner
609 posts
what I don't get about the call is that the runners lead foot hit the base before the bad throw hit the fielders glove and then the runner.

Dave--don't understand how the runner could be called in a dlb base game. The runner gets the orange. If the fielders glove crosses over the orange base, he is in the wrong.
Nov. 2, 2019
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I thought they called Turner out for interfering with Gurriel's catching of the ball. This wasn't a running lane violation. They went to the headset to make sure they made the proper interpretation.

Since they went to a commercial, I thought they might have been discussing to see if the runner on 1B had made 2nd base before the interference occurred.
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