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Discussion: Playing back to a lower class

Posted Discussion
April 30, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Playing back to a lower class
Why is it that you think your getting rewarded for being moved up in class (i.e. AAA to Major) but in all reality when you play locally (usually) in your home state and don't have enough teams in your class you get mixed in with lower level classes. What I'm trying to say is when your a Major team playing back to AAA you give up 5 runs which I'm okay with but it's the only being allowed the 3 HR's instead of the usual 6 HR's. So in fact your giving up 8 runs minimum if those 3 HR's are solo shots. I just don't feel you should be giving up both runs & HR's. Your taking your team out of there element of swinging away and now not having that choice. This rule seriously needs to be changed in some form or another. Thoughts ?????
April 30, 2019
TimMcElroy
940 posts
The higher rated team is considered to be better on BOTH sides of the ball- A Major team should have the ability to 1) score runs by base hitting and 2) prevent the other team from scoring runs through better defense.

April 30, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Well Timmy youíre kidding me right. So letís handicap the upper class teams by taking away an additional 3 (soloís) or 12 (grand slams) runs. Your not taking away only 5 runs but 8-12 runs possibly.
April 30, 2019
TimMcElroy
940 posts
Why so angry? I merely answered the question.

Are you suggesting that most Major teams don't have better hitters (power and average) than AAA teams?

Are you suggesting that most Major teams don't have better pitchers and fielders than AAA teams?
May 1, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
I'm not angry Tim it's just frustrating going to tournaments and playing out of class until it's time for your Elimination games start. So let's reward a team for playing great and move them up only to tell them your going back to your old rules for these games. Just my opinion that something needs to be discussed. I've talked teams in my area and we all feel the same way. I'm merely suggesting to look at this rule in the future.
May 1, 2019
Jawood
Men's 50
943 posts
The upper team should get to use their homerun rule. Giving up 5 runs while only getting to score 5 runs an inning is enough of a equalizer. This what we do in our non-sanctioned tournaments.
May 1, 2019
TimMcElroy
940 posts
Take an 8 team division using Ozzy#1's scenario:
50 Major teams (2) and 50 AAA teams (6) are grouped together for seeding play. In bracket ball, the Major teams go off and play Best 2 of 3 and the AAA teams play double elimination.

In the two seeding games, 4 of the 6 AAA teams will play a game vs the Major teams and 2 will not. If the 6 HR rule is used only in crossover games (Major vs AAA) the AAA teams won't be seeded using the same criteria.

One of the tie-breakers is least runs allowed. If four of the AAA teams are playing 6 HR seed games and two of them are playing 3 HR seed games there is a clear benefit given to the teams playing no crossover games.

Just my .02
May 1, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Isn't giving up 5 runs and taking away 3 HR's the same thing. Why don't you just give them 8 runs right off the start. You're taking everything from upper class teams. I'm simply asking how this is fair for a upper class teams. Common Sense people, Common Sense :-)
May 1, 2019
TimMcElroy
940 posts
Taking 3 HR away from your team is not a penalty. It encourages your teammates to use some of their other skills.


While not directly tied to this conversation, I'd like to throw another thought at you- The goal for most teams is to play in, and win the World Masters Championships. Anyone that has played in Las Vegas knows that the ball flies there. HR numbers for all teams are artificially inflated.

If you plan on winning in the WMC (at any level of play) you better have guys in the lineup that know how to keep the ball in the park.

My point? In those seemingly meaningless seed games where the HR rules are reduced, take advantage of the OPPORTUNITY to prepare yourself for what is coming at the end of the year.


May 1, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Obviously this conversation is going nowhere. I'm done with this discussion. You're making points about a tournament where you play all teams in your class and this scenario doesn't happen. C'mon Tim.
May 1, 2019
NPW#9
5 posts
I've always said the same thing Ozzy the upper team gets a double whammy. It's already hard enough to win giving up 5 runs and then to lose HR makes it even more difficult. I am also good with giving up the 5 runs, but not both. There have been plenty of games where we score the max of 5 runs every inning and by the open inning we are still losing by 4-5 runs and out of home runs. Not much to do but play and deal with it.
May 1, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4281 posts
NPW#9 ... Respectfully, there seems to be an alternative line of reasoning that differs from yours in another couple of current threads here, where the proponents assert that the lesser rated team's rules set AND the 5-run or 11-defensive-player equalizer still wasn't enough ...
May 1, 2019
lb16
Men's 55
195 posts
Dave that is the timberworks thread which your comments have been absent from amazingly!
May 1, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4281 posts
lb16 ... Yep! ... No reason to voluntarily slide back under that bus before it pulls out of the station fairly soon on its way to M/B page two oblivion! ...
May 2, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Dave Dowell here's a point I'm trying to make. When we get mixed together for weekend tournaments and my team as a Major team plays 3 AAA teams that's 15 extra runs I'm giving to the tiebreaker of runs scored against when another Major team only plays 1 or 2 AAA teams. All I'm asking is how is this fair to playing down in another class. I'm all for the 5 runs but penalizing us twice by taking away our HR's too is not right. Thoughts ????
May 2, 2019
Bruster55
Men's 60
109 posts
The best scenario would be to play 55 Major teams and just give up the five runs.When you get into the tourneys ask the director to put you with the 55 Major teams we love playing against great competition.
Jeff A #55
May 2, 2019
DCPete
409 posts
It seems like this debate would make a lot more sense if someone could produce the actual stats on how often the Upper team wins or loses when they give up the 5 runs & their extra HRs.
Anyone know these numbers?
May 4, 2019
L.Martin
Men's 50
47 posts
And they wonder why teams donít want to move up, less teams to play, and penalized by spotting runs and losing HRs, IF and when the other lower class plays you.
May 6, 2019
Fuzz
20 posts
I agree with Ozzy and have been saying the same thing for years. Each team should play the home run rule for THEIR OWN classification. If 5 runs isn't adequate, increase from 5 runs to more than 5 runs. Also, there should still be a coin toss to determine home/visitor. The "upper" team might prefer to be visitor. We prefer to start off batting. To prove our commitment to this, if we play an "upper" team, we are going to stipulate that the upper team not be penalized by having to play down to our home run limit and that they receive their normal allowance of home runs.
May 6, 2019
Garocket
Men's 55
259 posts
The way I see it is if you let each team hit their homeruns. That's Major hitting 6 and AAA hitting 3. If each homerun is worth 3 runs and that is an average. You would have to spot the AAA team 9 runs. And how about the Major team should have better defense! how many runs do you spot for that 2!. Them Major would have to spot the AAA around 10 or 11 runs. Don't think the Major teams would want that. Maybe allow the Major 1 homerun more that the lower class team. and still spot the 5 runs.
May 6, 2019
Darjlov
7 posts
I think Tim is correct in his point of view. I play on a major team and I enjoy playing all classifications. I know we struggle more when we play down because most of our guys have HR power and not getting the additional 3 HRs when we play down does pigeon hole us a bit. However, in a tournament (pool play) the other Major teams are affected the same each should play down the same number of games thus have a net zero affect when it comes classification seedings.

Maybe the rule should be that the lower seed home run rule applies with either 1) the lower seed gets 5 runs and the higher seed is allowed a 6 run limit in the 5 innings the lower seed gets a run or 2) the 11-man equalizer. This way it makes the amount of runs equal but the higher seed team will now have to earn them. Like Tim explained most guys can hit a HR especially on major teams so allowing additional HRs for the Higher seed would actually eliminate the competitive balance given.

You would think a Major team would be a better hitting team able to generate runs without using homeruns.



May 7, 2019
mck71
Men's 60
342 posts
I agree with a LOT of the points made here BUT the issue will ALWAYS be the teams that avoids the bigger tourneys or the amount of tourneys to get moved up thereby "sandbagging" in lower divisions which may make teams that get moved up at a bit of a disadvantage. A TRUE upper level team SHOULD be able to do all the things that are stated when playing against a TRUE lower level team. Sadly I have seen this firsthand but when we play against lower level teams and lose, I am not so sure the powers to be make notes (but I could be wrong). That said, truly sux driving a long way to play 2 out of 3 so whatever we have to do to play some different teams, we will do!
May 9, 2019
Softballjuny23
Men's 40
11 posts
Ozzy#1 I agree. I played on a AAA team listed as a AAA team in Texas ( but was a Majors by SSUSA rules. Now they are a AAA team after going 0-5 at WMC) we played by the Equalizer rules. we did beat some of the teams or had real close games due to the HR rules. The problem I see with this is it does not show the real aspects of the game. Now in our Tournaments we play like this. At the coin toss of the first game played the AAA gets to make a choice. Take the 5 runs and 3 hrs for them and the Majors still get there 6 or The AAA team gets the 6 hrs to make the teams equal in that aspects, that decision at that fist game goes for the whole tourney. No switching back and forth. It has made the games a lot more realistic to what they would be. the Major/Major plus team gets to hit like they would undre normal game situations. We still have close games due to the 5 run equalizer. But we do have blow outs as well. I am now on a Major's in Texas but a Major Plus by SSUSA rules due to a qualifying tourney that the Major team played true AAA and AA teams. Reclassed by run differential in that tourney. My team last year was one of the teams in that tourney.
May 14, 2019
Ozzy#1
Men's 50
34 posts
Here's my point i'm trying to get across. If I play 3 (RR) games against AAA teams that's 15 runs I'm giving up. Extra runs. Another Major team only plays 2 of 3 (RR) games against AAA teams they're only giving up 10 runs so I'm getting penalized (5 runs) which could mean the difference in being seeded 1st in bracket play or 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. So when bracket play starts I would be getting screwed as seeding goes by Runs Scored Against because of playing an additional AAA team. It's not Runs Scored Against, they were not scored, they were given to that team. In this case you should not be penalized for this.
May 14, 2019
Wizard of Oz
Men's 50
16 posts
2017 we finished the year 38-35 in a 50's Major.... we were 33-20 against Major teams and 5-15 against AAA teams... We actually got run ruled 3 times... 2 times because of the spot! The HR rules need to be the same in all age brackets. I have mentioned this before as well.... It's not right that a 50 Major team (get 6 HRs) playing a 50 AAA (Gets 3 HRs) has to spot them 5 and only have 3 HRs to make those runs back. On top of that you rarely get 7 innings in to make up those runs! Maybe they shouldn't get 5 runs if we don't play 7 innings? ......Yet when a 40's Major (Get 8 HRs) plays a 40'AAA(Get 6 HRs) They play down and STILL get 6 Hrs to make up the 5 run spot! That is a hell of a lot easier to make up a 5 run spot when you get 6 HRs!

And as Darjlov said...ÖÖ..You would think a Major team would be a better hitting team able to generate runs without using homeruns

You would think that to be true... In a perfect World! ..... but if that were the case, then there should NEVER be a solo HR hit as well.... That doesn't happen either.
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