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Discussion: Stepping out of the front of the box?

Posted Discussion
Oct. 17, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
Stepping out of the front of the box?
I have a big stride when I swing, I have been called out for stepping out of the box, I get that but my question is...if when I plant my front foot and my heel or any part of my foot still touches the line when making contact...THEN my momentum carries my foot past the line AFTER contact is that an out?

Pretty much grew up playing tourneys and it was never called almost like the front line didn't exist and in Senior ball it seems to be a issue, the boxes to me seem to vary from field to field especially at any of the BLD fields there GIGANTIC lol but in my opinion seems like they need to add a few more inches to the front of the plate because if you look at Dave's most recent video on You Tube it was a Chicago team and someone else just posted a few days ago, I'm looking at almost every player completely stepping out of the box and it was only called once in the video. not ranting just want to know about stepping on then out of the box and maybe some opions on what I said?

Maskedman's post made me remember this question but didn't want to blow up his post.
Oct. 17, 2018
BallPlayer35
Men's 60
18 posts
lowprofile, I agree with you that this rule needs to go or adjust the box. This rule was intended for baseball where the ball hitting the plate was not a strike. If the plate was not part of the strike zone, it would not be an issue. If I am a pitcher standing 10ft further back and I can consistently pitch 6 to 7 feet in height and hit the front of the plate/mat, for me it would be physically impossible to hit the ball above my knees without stepping over the batters box line.

A team was eliminated from the tournament because an umpire called a batter out for stepping out of the box for the second time, but I was watching and although part of his foot was out, his heal was on the line. He got a base hit that would of won the game. There was even a video to prove that he did not step out. It was brought to the Director's attention, but he can't make that call. Instead, get rid of a rule that only causes us players to get upset about. Fortunately, many of the umpires do not call it, but there are a couple and if they are mistaken once, who knows how many more times they missed that one.
Oct. 17, 2018
Bruster55
Men's 60
109 posts
I agree get rid of the out of the box rule.Maybe it can be brought up at the next rules meeting.
Just my 2 cents.Thx
Oct. 18, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
lowprofile.. if any part of your foot when making contact with the ball fair or foul is on the line you are legal.. if your foot then slides off the line I would still have a legal at bat.. BUT remember this is not an easy call to make the HP umpire is watching the pitch come in and following the ball as you make contact with your bat
Oct. 18, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
Ballplayer35 interesting interpretation of the box intended for Baseball? I would agree with that though. As for the elimination from a tourney because of umpires judgment call really sucks wow, and with video to boot. but yes who knows how many more times it was missed?

Bruster55 heck I think it's just an email to SSUSA to get it on the agenda for the powers to be?

B.J. thank you for the clarification on the rule, I have one more question though lol...can my back foot start out of the box with some part of my foot touching the line? I have a 3 step stride when hitting the ball and use every bit of the box, but the front of the box is always on my mind so I don't step out of it.

Lastly lol I've seen a lot of the senior softball vids on You Tube, and it seems like almost everyone positions themselves in the middle or front of the mat as they line up for the strike zone to cover the front of the mat from a strike call, from that position it seem like everyone's stride takes them very close to stepping on if not stepping out as I can clearly see on every video I watch! maybe they could add maybe just 6 inches or so to the front line to eliminate this problem as almost everyone uses the mat as there starting position. Ok I will shut up now!

Oct. 18, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
lowprofile.. yes as long as some part of both feet are on the line of the batters box you are legal.. also the umpire can't allow the pitcher to pitch if you are set up outside the box he should instruct you to get in the box.. and once the pitcher releases the pitch you can't step out of the box and back in the box before hitting a pitch..
Oct. 18, 2018
k man
Men's 65
317 posts
While you might not be happy with the front of the batters box, find one pitcher who would feel comfortable with the front being eliminated and the guy who runs up on the ball as he swings.
Oct. 19, 2018
stever
Men's 70
99 posts
Rather than changing the game, why don't you adjust your approach? This is, after all, a "hitters game." It appears as if you are just trying to get one more advantage. And no, I'm not a pitcher.
Oct. 19, 2018
mad dog
Men's 65
4183 posts
tell me stever.....how about we let the pitcher throw any height....so as long as it hits the mat its a strike.....wow this is a hitters game but they seem to complain all the time...oh the pitch is to hi/lo....or the pitcher is doing something they don't like.....wow........
Oct. 19, 2018
bond_171513
Men's 55
77 posts
Part of the problem is the inconsistency with the umpires. Those of us who played 55M at Sunset had lousy NSA umpires who basically told us they weren't going to call out of the box unless it was "blatant". While I'm sure at BLD or other parks, it was being enforced.
Oct. 19, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Actually, if you have a whole foot out of the box when making contact with the ball, the foot must be on the ground to be considered out of the box.

The box is there for a reason.
Oct. 19, 2018
1jonsey
48 posts
so are you saying that you see batters hits a softball with 1 foot in the air?
Oct. 20, 2018
stick8
1972 posts
1jonsey it’s not often but I’ve seen players hit with their front foot in the air. Many times it’s someone whos a dead pull hitter and tries going opposite field. Admittedly it can look real ugly but it does happen.
Wayne37 is correct. Foot has to be on the ground completely out of the batters box for it to be called. If the batters foot is in the air it’s legal.
Oct. 20, 2018
1jonsey
48 posts
stick8 really, wow, i've played and watched a lot of softball and I don't think I have ever seen a batter have 1 foot off the gorund and in the air and then hit a softball
Oct. 20, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
I didn't say I've seen it in softball as I've very seldom umpired slo-pitch. I'm saying what has to take place for the rule to be enforced properly. I have called it in baseball when a batter reaches for a curveball way out of the strike zone or if they have squared to bunt and they have a foot out the box when making contact. Hard to track a pitch and see the batter's feet at the same time. Calls like this have to be pretty obvious to determine judgement in doing so.

I don't recall for exact purposes, but I believe in HS ball if you make contact and your foot touches the plate and you still have the same foot on the line, you're ruled out. NCAA and MLB I believe differ in that respect.

I have a teammate on one of my Thursday night teams that will sometimes jump and lunge at the ball and hit with both feet [slightly] in the air.
Oct. 20, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
Yo Stever, I was just inquiring about the front line as long as my foot touches the line am I good? I got my answers. And to your question of...why don't you adjust your approach? of course I have, I haven't been called out in over a year I think? so no problem there. just saying it's such a problem that people always say...some umps call it and some don't. and that is the truth!

So just for the heck of it, I picked one of Dave's new You Tube videos Mavericks vs team Kitty recently posted from this years Vegas worlds, I picked three category's...In the box swing, out of the box swing and on the line swing. I only did an inning I think just for a sampling, foul ball swings included, results...

foot in the box while making contact= 2

foot on the line while making contact= 9

foot out of the box while making contact= 1

While 9 were on the line a heck of a lot of them had over half there foot on the line. If you multiply that by 7 innings you can see everyone's very close to stepping out.

Just saying maybe adding 6 inches to the front of the plate would help elevate the umpire having to call or not make the call IMO. Also I thought the pitchers could move back what 4,5 6 feet from the mound? So not sure adding 6 inches to the box is a death sentence for the pitchers, I don't pitch and don't have any desire to lol, the pitchers position for sure is a hot topic if someone pisses middle.

lastly IMO batters positions themselves to the plate NOT THE FRONT OF THE BOX. Never seen anyone start with there front foot on the line? lol, but maybe I'm wrong.

Oct. 20, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
And just an FYI the one player who stepped clearly out of the box...was not called out lol
Oct. 21, 2018
stick8
1972 posts
1jonsey it’s definitely rare but I have seen it. And it looks ugly. Heck I may have done it earlier this year. I had a full count and had to keep it fair. Pitch appeared to be border line deep so I lunged upward and left my feet to hit. Luckily it fell in for a bit. My teammates were ridiculing me about it.
Oct. 21, 2018
OZ40
549 posts
Stick falls out of bed hitting! The man is a machine! Phenomenal, phenomenal, awesome, awesome! :-)
Oct. 21, 2018
garyheifner
622 posts
ALL the batter box lines should be eliminated. Most are gone by the 3rd inning anyway.

No matter where U stand, a hitter has to defend the mat which keeps U in a small area.

Also, what difference does it make if U step on or in front of the plate during a swing. It means nothing
Oct. 21, 2018
txnighttrain
114 posts
The batter's box has plenty of room. Move back if you need more room forward.

Batter's Box:

Batter's box is 3 feet wide by 7 feet deep.

Batter must have some portion of both feet inside of the batter's box when the windup / delivery begins.

Any portion of the foot touching the chalk / lines is considered "in" the box.

On the swing, the batter is considered "out of the box" when he has one foot completely on the ground, completely outside of the batter's box when contact is made.

As long as you have not put your foot down on the ground outside the box prior to making contact, you are considered still in the box. In other words, if you foot is in the air, make contact and ball way, then foot hits outside box, you are not out. Also, any player who intentionally obliterates the chalk line can be called out and ejected from the games.
Oct. 21, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1397 posts
Gary, this is my opinion only, but I am inclined to agree with you. Most parks here do not put down batter's boxes, and we have very little trouble here without them. Also in my opinion only, senior softball has even less need of a batter's box because of the fixed strike target.

Txnighttrain, I have tried to explain many times that 21 square feet is huge especially when you consider that it is greater than that because the foot must be completely out to be actually out of the box. The fact that most parks here don't mark batter's boxes has almost completely eliminated those discussions/arguments.
Oct. 21, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
Txnighttrain, you are correct in the aspect of the box being big enough, We just have to adjust and I have. I am just stating that it is a rule that is constantly violated and not always enforced. As Nancy says...senior softball has even less need of a batter's box because of the fixed strike target, I would agree with Nancy because as I said earlier most everyone lines up to the plate or mat, not the front line. But Nanac we probably still need a box cause some people would go stupid crazy out of the box and as Dave says he wants to protect the pitchers which I would agree with, these balls and bats we use can do serious damage to someone.

Watched another video today on You Tube, Major plus teams, almost EVERY batter went completely out of the box, not foot on the line, I mean way out of the box. And LMBO when I watched a guy just obliterate the front line as he stepped in with the ump right in front of him and NOTHING SAID!. So is it more exceptable in Major plus than say AAA? I've played both, people in AAA can hit just as hard as Major plus players IMO.

Anyways so thankful for SSUSA to give us this platform so we can all enjoy doing something most of us have done our entire lives, they make the rules and they do whats best for our safety as were OLD PEOPLE with slower reactions than when we were younger.I almost qualify for the Denny's senior discount on a side note...woo hoo! playing this weekend in SoCalssa and still get excited to play! so rock on fellas and ladies and keep your foot in the box. \m/
Oct. 22, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1397 posts
lowprofile, I always did the plate meetings for Coachie. I won't say what tournament we were at because Dave might figure out who the umpire was, but he said if you do this or this, I will call you out. The this that he was doing was kicking the lines away. Most out of the box calls that I have had were stepping on the plate or all of the way in front of it. In the many games that I have done, I have only ever had the one that I described that ran way up in front of the box to go after the pitcher (out of home runs). I would like to believe in senior softball that no one is trying to wipe out a pitcher on purpose. In young guys, you hear them say things like "Buzz the tower" or "Watch your Chiclets" or name your saying that you have heard. I have never heard any batter talk like that in senior softball. I will use the box if one is marked, but if not, I will not pretend that I know exactly where the lines were. I do prefer the box not being marked because we have almost zero issues here without one.
Oct. 22, 2018
DCPete
407 posts
The total size of the batters box is pretty irrelevant since only about 3 feet is in front of the plate/mat and the other 4 feet are useless if you're trying to hit a pitch landing on the front of the plate/mat.
Really can't understand why anyone wants to make a big issue out of this since having one foot step in front of the box doesn't give the hitter any real advantage and no one makes a big deal out of pitchers throwing outside the pitchers box or coaches coaching outside the coaches box.
Can't you just try to get the batters out instead of begging for the umpires to give you cheap technical outs?
Oct. 24, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Just for clarifications sake, both feet must be completely in the batter's box as you take your position in the box. While your foot may be touching the line, no part of the foot can be outside the line.

Carry on
Oct. 24, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
wayne, the batter does not have to have the whole foot completely in the box... all he has to have is some part of the foot touching a line to be legal


1.5 • BATTER'S BOX
The batter's box is the 3-foot by 7-foot area to which the batter is restricted. The lines are considered as being within the batter's box. At least some portion of both feet of the batter must be on the line or within the batter’s box.
Oct. 24, 2018
SS11
53 posts
DC Pete said - "Really can't understand why anyone wants to make a big issue out of this since having one foot step in front of the box doesn't give the hitter any real advantage"

Why would you step out of the box to hit the short pitch that will hit the front of the plate? So you don't have to hit it at your knees? Why? Because it is an advantage to hit the ball at your belt or higher. If there was no advantage, guys wouldn't do it. This is slowpitch right, where good hitters hit .750 and higher. So the advantages a pitcher might have is hitting the corners that might turn a .750 hitter into a .500 hitter. Batters that might whine over it, should just get over it. Do all umpires call it? No. Do all umpires call 6' or 12' the exact same? No. If an umpire is calling it, we as players need to adjust and not be disappointed that an umpire is enforcing the rules of the game.
Oct. 24, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1397 posts
SS11, the only time that I have ever seen someone run out of the front of the box and called them out was because they were trying to hit the pitcher because they were out of homeruns. That was not a senior game. There are a few batters locally who want to stand up in front of the box to start with. Then they want to complain how a perfect pitch is deep to them. They are also not playing senior ball. In senior softball, the best strategy is to stand even with the plate or to the middle of the strike mat. A good pitcher can easily mess up a batter playing "box games".
Oct. 25, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
BJ,

The BATTER'S BOX is the 3-FOOT BY 7-FOOT AREA to which the batter is RESTRICTED. The lines are considered as being WITHIN the batter's box. At least some portion of both feet of the batter must be ON THE LINE or WITHIN the batter’s box.

Notice the words I've highlighted.

Thus in summation, ANYTHING outside the 3-foot by 7-foot AREA DOESN'T MEAN WITHIN the RESTRICTED AREA!!!!
Oct. 25, 2018
Garocket
Men's 55
259 posts
As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Wayne 37. This time he is 100% correct prior to the pitch both feet must be entirely inside the box. they can be touching or on the line but no portion can be outside the lines of the box. When you contact the ball the foot can be outside the box as long as some portion of the foot is still in contact with the lines. But now in ASA fastpitch on contact no portion of the foot can be outside the lines, just killed the running slap hitters.
Oct. 25, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Wayne 37 and Garocket, we respectfully disagree ...

Rule book DEFINITION §1.5BATTER'S BOX (page 1) states [1] the dimensions of the box and describes both [2] the status of the lines being part of the box and [3] the concept that "lines are in" for determining the batter's compliance ... PLAYING RULE §7.3 ABATTING POSITION (page 41) clarifies the batter's compliance with being in the box as having "..at least some portion of both feet on or inside the lines.." ... The Rule does NOT prohibit a portion of the batter's foot extending beyond the line so long as contact is maintained with the line ...

If you prefer to assert that DEFINITION §1.5 takes priority over RULE §7.3 A, you would be incorrect ... If there is a conflict in interpreting the effect of the two provisions considered together, the RULE always takes precedence over the DEFINITION ...

This reminds me a bit of the controversy a couple of years ago about having to overrule the call as a Director upon hearing an umpire say "..Batter is out for touching the white bag!.." ... There was NO such provision in the rule, which required ONLY that the batter-runner touch some portion of the orange bag ...

Oct. 25, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
Garocket.. you brought up ASA... and in ASA slow pitch the batter must have both feet completely inside the box before a pitch ...
the ASA rule is below you can see the difference in wording from SSUSA

Section 3. BATTING POSITION.
A. Prior to the pitch, the batter must have both feet completely within the lines of the batter’s box. The batter may touch the lines, but no part of the foot
may be outside the lines prior to the pitch.
Oct. 25, 2018
TimMcElroy
865 posts
Players don't know the actual rule, yet insist that umpires do a better job of enforcing the rule as they think it should be written or ought to be applied. Amazing.
Oct. 25, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
Tim... lol .. I agree ..
Oct. 25, 2018
marcster13
102 posts
I personally don't have a problem keeping my feet in the box because i am too uncoordinated to run around in the box while tying to swing at a moving object. But....... Playing at places that have a pre-painted batters box like at BLD the box always seems smaller than at other venues. Like a foot shorter! So if our batters box really is supposed to be 4x7 (Noted above in this thread) but BLD and others makes the box for the size of baseball which is 4x6 then I'd say SSUSA should not even bother enforcing the rule at these venues. I've never measured the batters box at these places that have it pre-painted. Has anyone else?
Oct. 25, 2018
marcster13
102 posts
^^Sorry 3x7^^
Oct. 25, 2018
marcster13
102 posts
One other thing I've been curious about is which came first. The batters box size or the plate being a strike? I ask because if the batters box size came first then the plate came later the batter effectively lost some stride room.
Oct. 25, 2018
stick8
1972 posts
The question is after the second or third game of the day when the batters box is obliterated how does the umpire determine a batter being out of the box?
Oct. 25, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
stick8 ... I've seen a number of remedies, but let's deal with the common problem first: This is a frequently recurring issue at facilities with artificial turf batter's box areas having lines either sewn in or permanently painted ... When they can't "wipe the lines" (a huge pet peeve of mine as a Director!), rule compliance judgments are pretty simple! ... Big League Dreams facilities are an excellent example, but they also exist at Golden Eagle near Reno, Victory Lane in Phoenix and undoubtedly other facilities we use ... But as to your conjecture, here's my read on it, in somewhat of a priority order ...

• The best case condition is to have the batter's boxes touched up by field personnel after each game ... It takes very little time and should be done as a minimum field prep function ...
• Second best is to stop the game for the blatant "line wipers" and have it re-chalked ... I do NOT recommend stopping the game clock while this unfolds, but I DO highly recommend using that down time to remind the perps of the penalties for intentional obliteration of the box lines ...
• I admire the good/better umpires who will use the bat from either the last batter or (ideally) the guy coming to the plate and scratch the front and inside lines with the bat handle ... The message is unmistakable and puts the batter on notice that the ump is paying attention ...

Some combination of those usually works for me as a Director in minimizing the offenders!

Oct. 25, 2018
bkb555
293 posts
I watched some of the videos mentioned above and I saw guys with their front foot up (pre-pitch)against the front part of the box and strided 18 inches in front of the lined box to contact the ball...no call made....if the box is there , the ump has to make a call....there was no confusion on this play, it wasn't a shoe or a toe in front of the box it was a full foot and a half......as long as the rule isn't enforced, players are going to keep doing it....I know they were Major plus players and the umps seemed to give them certain leniency but this exceeded privilege
Oct. 25, 2018
lowprofile
64 posts
I have to agree with bkb555 the videos you can watch on You Tube Senior softball from this years Vegas worlds is a blatant disregard for the front line and not being called especially in the major + division. I have a big stride and start at the very back line so I don't violate the front line. Some of the different fields due seem to not always adhere to the dimensions the box should be as Dave stated and most likely a little smaller than should be? thus maybe some of the non calls and I'm thinking this might get bad for people that step out of the box since it's being called out on this open forum.

I understand that we all need to adjust and maybe there could in the future be an amendment or something to the rule as I see probably 70/80% line up to the mat and stride on the line or out of the box, very few go to the front line, and the others go to the back line. I don't want to upset you Dave or Tim this is all just a perception viewed on video and a known fact. I personally would love to see the box extended a little as I could open up my swing without fear of being called out, BUT the rule is there for safety and so people don't go stupid crazy forward which yes you could feasibly smash middle even harder or get on the pitcher faster as I agree with your pet peeve Dave.

I'm sure were killing a dead horse here as I don't think were going to get a rule change and I'm fine with that, Dave feel free to delete the thread maybe tomorrow after some last minute people want to chime in as I do not want to stir up any bad feelings with the players or SSUSA as I only wanted to know the rules about STEPPING ON THE LINE when contacting the ball. I'm innocent till proven guilty! lol

Carry on...
Oct. 25, 2018
Clutch14
1 posts
Guys, the BLD boxes in Vegas (and everywhere else there is turf fields for that fact) are not 7 feet, they are 6 feet baseball batters boxes. I tried to explain that to SSUSA but they don’t seem to care, which is odd because I figured they would want to have a correct interpretation of the rules. I played in the conference for years and the box couldn’t be called at BLD for that reason. Silly to have the front of the strike zone (front of the plate) 2 feet from the front of the box. Doesn’t make any sense, and in my case, keeps me hard on my front foot on short balls that I routinely hit through the pitchers knees. Felt bad hitting the guys I did but couldn’t really help it not being able to get through the bottom half of a ball being 6’3 and out of the box on a normal stride on a short pitch.
Oct. 26, 2018
mck71
289 posts
Clutch, funny you should mention that. They added new turf fields in a tourney we played in at Salisbury, MD this year. They actually had the white boxes the baseball size but then painted softball boxes in yellow which were the ones we used. As an umpire, I would pace off the boxes to see if they were indeed 3x7 before applying my call (and of course notifying the TD and both teams). IF the box is correct, the call is applied, if not, hopefully I could get the box changed correctly but when that can't be done (as in painted boxes), I would need to apply my best judgement.

And as bkb stated, I am always paying more attn to taller guys standing in the top of the box and guys who like to "run up" to hit the ball. They are more likely to "abuse" the box privilege.

I will add that with the front of the plate/mat being a strike, that does put taller players at as disadvantage against pitchers who are very good at working the front of the plate with a low pitch. I will also add as a pitcher, those are the balls that usually come back at you if you miss the inside corner! :-)
Oct. 26, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Clutch14 ... Your assertion that the BLD batter's boxes are undersized is factually incorrect ... I have been the lead Field Director at BLD for every SSUSA tournament there since it opened ... I carry a measuring tape to demonstrate to more skeptics than you can imagine that the batter's boxes are [1] 3' x 7' in dimension AND [2] properly positioned with respect to BOTH home plate and the pitching rubber ... The carpet insert "lines" are wider than most manual chalkers make, which creates an illusion that the contrasting color interior of the box is undersized ... That is not the case ... Remember, lines are IN ... The exterior dimensions including the lines are precisely 3' x 7' ...

A couple of years ago, I also measured all 12 batter's boxes for proper positioning and 10 of 12 were right on the money ... On two fields, the carpet had slipped a bit from usage and the boxes were both a bit too close to the pitching rubber ... In both cases, the variance was less than 1" ... Look me up the next time you play an SSUSA event at BLD and we'll do this little demo for your benefit, too ... Thanks! ...

P.S. - The same circumstances exist at Golden Eagle Regional Park in Reno/Sparks ... I get to do the same "tape-measure demo" there frequently to dispel the faulty assumptions arising for the same reasons there ...

Oct. 26, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1397 posts
So all of this proves my point that this is what I call a "heart rule". People have real emotions about it, and no one will ever change anyone's mind. Here in Indy we have almost zero issues with batter's boxes because they are not marked. The one place that I work where they are, I use them until they are gone. Then there is no relevance. Here we do not have people running out of the box to try and hit the pitcher which is my biggest concern. I understand that it may be different other places. Yes, it is disrespectful to kick out a created batter's box line. If you are going to do it, it might be better to do it before I get there. NA opinion only: I will never pretend that I know what the dimensions are of a box that does not exist; I will not put bats or other objects down to mark it, and I will not delay games to have me or anyone else redo lines. These to me are smart "aleck" approaches to a perceived problem. Umpires can get in enough trouble without creating additional issues. So feel free to yell at me if you think that a batter is out of the box because most players do not understand the box rule. Many think that they do and get very emotional over it. I enforce it, but in all of my years of umpiring at all levels, I have only had one "idiot" that was trying to hit the pitcher. Safety is my number one concern. I have zero issues with eliminating even marking a batter's box. I follow the rules and will enforce it if it is there, but I don't see a real need for it when every call that I have ever made on it but two were for stepping on the plate or chasing a pitch and stepping all of the way in front of it. If you disagree, I respect your opinion, but if you are on my field, you might have to respect mine.
Oct. 26, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Nancy ... Please be cautious about imposing your personal disdain for any batter's box lines being in conflict with the official SSUSA Rule Book and related specifications for field markings ... Based on experience, I'm reasonably sure most players are more frustrated with inconsistent rulings by umpires in the same tournament than they are about a "global" misapplication of a rule so long as everyone calls it the same ... SSUSA rules differ from a lot of local league and minor-event play in that we require batter's boxes and the application of the rules relative thereto ... Thanks ...
Oct. 26, 2018
Garocket
Men's 55
259 posts
Dave I read the batters box rule and it could be confused the way it is stated.
It says that some portion of the foot or feet can be on the line or within the batters box. It would be more understandable if it read as long as either foot was not entirely out of the box at time of pitch then this would be legal.
I fully understand your explanation and can agree with it. But an umpire that has umpired other association they would interpret it as the some part of the foot can be on the line or within the box. Not arguing just know that on any given weekend you might have umpires that would interpret it a different way then that is what makes players say its a different rule on every field we play on. Your interpretation would be the easiest to enforce.
Oct. 26, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1397 posts
Dave, I agree with you, and you are always welcome to delete my comments. My opinions which are mine alone are based on decades and thousands of games experience. Most people don't have that. I will always enforce rules whether I personally agree with them or not. If a rule changes, I will enforce it. I understand that my views don't always align with everyone else's. I am dedicated to SSUSA completely.
Oct. 26, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Garocket ... Rulebook §7.3 A defines clearly [emphasis added] what stepping out of the box means ...
_______

"...A batter who steps out of the batter’s box at any time during the pitch and then hits the ball, fair or foul, shall be called out. Steps out means touching the ground completely outside of the lines of the batter’s box."

Oct. 26, 2018
stick8
1972 posts
None of the responses to my question are incorrect in and of themselves. All make some valid points and of course Dave is correct that it’s ideal to re-chalk the batters box so this call is easier for umps to make. But unfortunately at some complexes the option to re-chalk isn’t always available. Some places don’t even chalk the first and third base lines!!
The question still remains. If you’re umpiring a game where there is no drawn batters box what is the best way for you, as an umpire, to determine if a batter is out of the box when making contact with the ball?
Oct. 26, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
stick8 ... I agree, and most times it simply comes down to an umpire exercising good judgment ... There's a classic quote from a US Supreme Court decision from 1964 (Jacobellis v. Ohio) dealing with obscenity ... Justice Potter Stewart was struggling with how to define obscenity and ultimately ended up writing "...I know it when I see it..." ... By analogy, the fundamental base rule in all of sports is the simple test of: "Did what just happened provide one individual/team with an unfair advantage over the other?" ... In the absence of lines, that may be the best course of action on how and when to make the call ...

Oct. 26, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
garocket,

Why do you have a problem agreeing with me? I know when I'm spot on about a rule.

Clutch14,

MLB batter's boxes are 4' X 6' and 6" from the plate. Those turf fields are multi-purpose and they use portable mounds to pitch from.

To clarify once more, to be considered to be in the box, both feet must be entirely in the box. They can touch the line, but no part of the foot may be touching outside of the line.

If you know a hitter isn't within the lines, hold your hand up signaling not to pitch. Instruct the batter where he may stand. If they don't comply, they can find a shade tree far away from my field to dwell on the matter.

Gentlemen, I did this for a long time. I know what I'm talking about. I dread the day I'm on the field and someone appeals a BOO (batting out of order) again.

I had to help one time. Neither team or umpire knew how to enforce it. They never could understand why you had to take the last batter off the base, call them out and they got to come up again after taking them off the base. But that's a discussion for another time and day.
Oct. 26, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
Wayne 37 ... You have perfectly stated the USA Softball (formerly ASA) batter's box rule ... But the format here deals with SSUSA playing rules, which [1] differ from USA and [2] have been correctly stated for SSUSA ... And with Halloween coming up this week, why wouldn't now be a perfect time for a wide ranging "BOO" discussion? ... LOL!
Oct. 26, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
lol again he is spot on
Oct. 27, 2018
stick8
1972 posts
Dave you’re correct about knowing it when you see it, that’s the main way. In USSSA, should a team request it, the umpire can take a bat, measure and mark the box. If not already, perhaps in ssusa that can be done? You and BJ might be able to shed some light on that one.
This is akin to the 10ft box the pitcher can pitch from behind the rubber. Some fields it isn’t drawn. In a one man system how does the ump determine if a pitcher is further than 10 ft back? Gotta go with your gut feeling or draw a line.
Oct. 27, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Dave, my mistake. I thought Clutch14 was saying the lines for baseball at the park he mentioned were 3' x 6'. I'm not fully aware of the rule sets when it comes to different organizations. SSUSA goes by 3' x 7', then that's way it gets enforced.

Supposedly they have a huge complex(es) north of Dallas that they can switch out to baseball, fast pitch softball with temporary fences, and maybe slo-pitch in short time. Up that way they have two huge HS football stadiums that will seat right around 20 thousand.

And BJ, your comment lends nothing to the conversation. This is about the 5th time in the last few months you've butchered a ruling.

Oct. 27, 2018
B.J.
1023 posts
wayne.. congratulations.. I'm glad to see you finally admitted that you are not fully aware of the rule sets of different org. .. and apparently SSUSA is 1 of them.. yet you still continue to post your "spot on" incorrect rulings
Oct. 28, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
BJ, again you've lent nothing to the conversation, just your strange obsession with myself.

The rules we've discussed prior are the same in every rule set I've ever recalled reading, SSUSA included. Again, all you do is muck up the waters for others that want to learn. Apparently you've disqualified yourself from those who want to.

Perhaps one day you will understand the folly of your ways. However, I don't see it happening in the applicable future.
Oct. 28, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3977 posts
**THREAD CLOSED** due to [1] excessive pitch count, [2] cyclical redundancy and [3] petty bickering ...
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