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Online now: 3 members: TABLE SETTER 11, dawg888, softball4b; 88 anonymousDiscussion: Is this scenario a force out?
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| Oct. 5, 2018 Turbobob Men's 65 71 posts | Is this scenario a force out? We are a senior slow pitch local league, self-umpiring. This scenario involves nullifying a run scored when a runner left the base early (on a tag up) after a fly ball was caught. I looked in the rules for determining if the call for doubling up a runner who tags up and leaves the base early on a fly out is indeed a force out, but there was nothing specific to that situation. Sections 1.27 and 5.7.B.3 come the closest. Scenario: Bases loaded, 1 out. Fly ball is hit and caught by an outfielder, resulting in out #2. Runners on both 1st and 2nd bases "tag up" and leave the base before the ball was caught. Runner on 3rd base tags up and leaves the base legally after the ball was caught and scores before the outfielder throws the ball to 2nd baseman. Runner who left 2nd base early makes it to 3rd base and stays there. Outfielder throws ball to second baseman who then touches 2nd base while the ball is still live (time was not called), and runner who ran to 3rd base remains there. Umpire calls the runner who left 2nd base early, out, and said the run counts since it was scored before the out was made. The defensive team makes a live ball appeal (that the run scored should be nullified) bringing this to the umpire's attention that the original runner on 2nd left the base early and was forced out, making this out #3 (a double play), and a run cannot count if the 3rd out is a force out. This is where the confusion begins. Remember, we are self-umpiring, and the umpires at the time were not aware of the rules for that situation, that this putout is a force out. The managers got involved to resolve if it was a force out or not. The conclusion was the putout at 2nd base was not via a tag out, so the only other choice is it was a force out, therefore the run is nullified. Is this interpretation of the rules correct since this situation is not specifically addressed? I realize every specific play or situation cannot show up in the rule book. |
| Oct. 5, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | NOT a force out, but rather a "live ball appeal" and, accordingly a timing play. A force out can only occur when a batter-runner or base runner is forced to advance to the next base. Third out occurs at 2nd base, and RUN SCORES. |
| Oct. 6, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | turbo.. this is in the book.. below is the rule for scoring of runs your scenario is covered under B-2 SECTION 5 THE GAME 5.7 SCORING OF RUNS A. One run shall be scored each time a runner crosses the scoring line or touches the scoring plate, after legally touching all bases in proper order. B. No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. 2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line or touching the scoring plate. 3. A preceding runner is declared out on appeal involving a force play. NOTE: An appeal may be made after the third out in order to nullify a run. |
| Oct. 6, 2018 Turbobob Men's 65 71 posts | Thanks Dave and B.J. During the game when this was happening, no one had their "rule book caps" on, and had to go by what we thought was the right ruling for this situation. After the game, I looked up the rules and saw 5.7.B, 2 and 3, which fit our situation and I didn't take into account about it being a "timing play" as explained by Dave. First time for everyone. Also, I didn't have the foresight before making my post to get the definition of a force play, and thought the out may qualify as a force, but it didn't. That's what this board is all about, and I appreciate the explanations. Turbobob |
| Oct. 6, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Turbobob - not trying to be an ass, but why would you think there was a force? neither runner was forced to go anywhere. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | lb16, in his defense, there are many expressions that are misused or misunderstood in softball. Force out and force play are just one instance. Other ones that come to mind are base line and base path, interference and obstruction, and four base award and four base error. So I get where he was going. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Turbobob, since you stated the outfielder caught the fly ball the batter is out, thus all runners on base are not forced to advance, thus no force out. Runners advance at their own risk. Since the throw came in to second on a live ball appeal for the runner leaving second early, the run from third would count if the appeal was completed after the runner from third scored. If the appeal was completed before the runner from third scored then the run would not count. This is what is commonly referred to as a “timing play”. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Turbobob Men's 65 71 posts | lb16, Nancy and stick8. Not having any time to consult the rule book during the game, the conclusion we came to was since there was no tag out, it was a force out, which would nullify the run. Obviously an incorrect conclusion, and we didn't think about a timing play as described. Lesson well learned for the next time. If the runner who advanced to 3rd after the fly out started to retreat back to 2nd base, then indeed it would have been a force out as stated in the rules in Section 1.27.A.(b) if a runner, after touching the next base, retreats back to the previous base, the force play is re-instated and he may be out via a tag out or touching the base. As far as I can recollect, this was not the case in our play. Our instant replay camera wasn't working :-) Good responses. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | turbo.. your comment in your last post.. you are still confused on this rule.. (a) says that there cannot be a force out on any batted ball that is caught "in the air".. therefore a runner that has left the base early on a caught fly ball and is retreating to re-tag or just get back to the bag cannot be forced.. if the ball beats him back to the bag.. yes he is out but it is still considered a time play.. the ONLY time there can be a force out is if a runner is actually forced to advance as in bases loaded and the batter hits a ground ball or a fly ball that is NOT CAUGHT... hope this helps |
| Oct. 7, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | as far as (b) I'm trying to think of a scenario where a runner that was FORCED to advance to the next bag and then after reaching the next bag he turned around and retreated back to the bag he just left.. hmmm senior moment is all I can come up with.. and if the runner does this he would definitely qualify for tournament "director" material.. :) (b) If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he last occupied, the force play is reinstated and he may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, exactly. I was always taught in clinics that it is called a force play on a runner getting back to the bag when they leave early before the ball arrives there. A force out can only happen when running bases in the correct order, counter clockwise. I am laughing to myself a little because I watched some friends play backwards bases in a tournament yesterday. You and I have a mutual friend who hates when I call the leaving early a force play. Was anyone else taught that in clinics, or is it just here? Anyway what Turbobob is describing to me is a force play, not a force out. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | nancy.. i never use the word force play in my clinics in this scenario.. I always explain it's a time play.. because the runner is not actually "forced" to go back even after leaving early.. he could stand on the next base and actually be safe if not appealed |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Ouch, you had to add the director qualification. Well, if he got to that next bag, and the ball was caught, he had better get back to the previous bag or hope that the umpire didn't notice him leaving early. I only use he and him because us girls never do any of that when we are playing. ;-) Only related to force plays, not force outs, I am thinking of all of the runner fiascos that I have seen on infield fly over the years. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | I hope you know who the director comment was for (DD) |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, I agree. Our clinics only used the term timing play in regards to whether the run scored or not. So Florida, Indiana 1-1. |
| Oct. 7, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, that was my guess on director. He cringes when I use the term force play. I do the same when he uses base line instead of base path. We can discuss that over an adult beverage some day. |
| Oct. 10, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | In the original post. Run scores because this is a time play and the runner achieves home before third out is made. Now if the runner doesn't make home before the PROPER appeal, run doesn't count. Runners cannot retreat or advance after the ball has been made dead. Infield fly removes the force and is simply to protect the runners. Not a FORCE if runner is returning to the base they came from. Never use the word baseline. It doesn't exist for rules parlance. |
