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Online now: 2 members: TABLE SETTER 11, TRosenthal; 84 anonymousDiscussion: Hitter Not Running
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| Aug. 15, 2018 shortstop33 37 posts | Hitter Not Running base loaded no outs batter hits ball in to out, which is clearly a base hit, all runners move up a base, runner on third scores, but batter stands in the box and watches runner score, then walks to bat rack to get his bat, outfielder throw to first for the put out, which is only the first out. Our umpire in chief which knows the rules pretty good, says it is a dead ball out and all runners must return to their bag, I'm saying wrong, what would be the difference if he hit a ball to the fence and it is caught, the batter does not have to run to first. |
| Aug. 15, 2018 grayhitter59 Men's 60 345 posts | an out is recorded and the run scores, if it's the 5th run end of inning, if not the 5th run next batter is up 1 out continue the inning. |
| Aug. 15, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | your UIC is correct.. I don't like that the rule is written this way but it is the rule and it was discussed in the past.. the reason given was that no runners were forced to advance since the B/R did not advance to 1st base?? I don't know why the B/R penalty is different than any other runner who doesn't advance .. in the same scenario if the runner that was on 2nd did not advance to 3rd and was called out on appeal that would be 1 out but the runner from 3rd would have still scored even though he technically was not forced to advance.. below is the rule 8.3 • BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT C. When he fails to advance to first base and enters his team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, or catcher obstruction. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot advance. |
| Aug. 15, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Wow! This comes under the category of you learn something new everyday!. Am I to assume this is only a SSUSA rule? Not ASA or Utrip? Just curious like B.J. what's the rationale behind this rule. |
| Aug. 15, 2018 Duke Men's 65 908 posts | We have so many ridiculous rules in senior softball, and this is just another. Next time that batter needs to hit a home run, then he does not have to touch a base. LOL! Andy Smith, USED2BE |
| Aug. 15, 2018 shortstop33 37 posts | What is different than him hitting a sac fly. If he just stands at the plate and doesn't run the outfield throws him out, just like any other batted ball if the ball beats you to first you do not have to continue. |
| Aug. 15, 2018 shortstop33 37 posts | Also once the winning run or 5/7 has scored the inning or game is over |
| Aug. 15, 2018 Duke Men's 65 908 posts | If a sac fly situation occurs, then the batter-runner does not have to touch first base, because he been put out. I agree a base hit is a bit ridiculous, because the runners can advance. But a base on balls or catcher obstruction is correct, because no one has been forced to advance, if the batter-runner does not touch first base and leaves the playing field. JMHO, Andy Smith, USED2BE |
| Aug. 15, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Well, ain't another one for the ages. This situation is called abandonment, which means the batter has abandoned his opportunity to run the bases. The fielder threw to first to record the out. So why would the UIC call the batter out twice. All this means is that the batter shall be called out as soon as he enters the dugout or non playing area. The ball is declared dead at that point. Therefore no runner may advance from the time the batter was declared out. It doesn't mean they can't advance at all and must return to their original base. If the runner scores before the act of abandonment and it is the 5th run. Change sides. Rule should state: The ball is immediately declared dead at the time the batter leaves the playing field. And that point no runners may advance to the next base. I'm still trying to figure out why this is an issue as the fielder retired the batter at 1B. |
| Aug. 16, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | the way the scenario is worded is that the out at 1st base came AFTER the B/R had abandoned any effort in advancing to 1st base.. he left the field of play and went to the bat rack which I would consider that to be the " team area" then the ball was thrown to 1st base.. if he had stood at the plate the whole time then there would be an out at 1st base.. run scores.. again I don't like the rule.. but it is a rule .. unless senior softball changes it |
| Aug. 16, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | k man as far as ASA I believe they consider this an appeal play (time play).. in that if the run scored BEFORE the B/R abandoned his attempt to go to 1st base and entered the team area then the out would be called but the run would score |
| Aug. 16, 2018 grayhitter59 Men's 60 345 posts | Stupid, stupid rule, needs to change, what if the guy was slow running to first and was throw out by a fielder, how is that different, only because he went to the dugout to get his glove, thinking the last run of the inning was scoring? this rule should be changed simply because when the hit a sit rule was put for HR the need to touch a base after the 5th or 7th run went out the door. My 2 cents |
| Aug. 16, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | This is not an appeal play. It is a timing play. OUTS ARE CALLED IN THE ORDER THAT THEY OCCUR. [Hitter Not Running base loaded no outs batter hits ball in to out, which is clearly a base hit, all runners move up a base, runner on third scores, but batter stands in the box and watches runner score, then walks to bat rack to get his bat, outfielder throw to first for the put out, which is only the first out. Our umpire in chief which knows the rules pretty good, says it is a dead ball out and all runners must return to their bag, I'm saying wrong, what would be the difference if he hit a ball to the fence and it is caught, the batter does not have to run to first.] From what I read, the batter got a base hit and didn't run to first with no outs. HE STOOD AT THE PLATE AND WATCHED THE RUNNER SCORE. He then proceeded to enter the dugout. At that time the ball should have been declared dead and runners CANNOT ADVANCE AFTER THE BALL IS DECLARED DEAD. If all runners had moved up a base before the batter entered the dugout is non-relevant here. Anyway, by calling the batter out the force is also removed. THE RUN SCORES AND UIC MIS-INTERPRETATED THE RULE. The abandonment call is merely the same as retiring the batter at first if he had run toward the base. RUN SCORES............RUN SCORES............RUN SCORES!!!!!!!!!! |
| Aug. 16, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Seems weird to me. I’d like to know what the intent of this rule is. I’m wondering if it has anything to do protecting the runners on base? 🤔 |
| Aug. 16, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Stick8, this is just a guess on my part because all associations used ASA as a "blueprint" when building their rules way back when, and I clearly remember when NSA did this too. I think that it was the becoming a baserunner instead of a batter-baserunner that was the intent, and that if you never attempted to go to 1B that you did not make that transition. Of course that was long ago and far away. |
| Aug. 16, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne lmao... again read your "SSUSA RULE BOOK" I posted the rule above.. the run doesn't score because the B/R didn't advance to 1st base he entered the team area instead.. again here is the effect of the B/R not advancing.. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot advance. Nancy, yes I think that is basically there premise.. I can somewhat agree with it on a walk?? but on a clean base hit the runners are forced to advance on the hit.. I just don't see returning the runners because the B/R went to the team area especially if he stood and waited for the runner on 3rd to score before doing so.. as in the 5 or 7th run of an inning |
| Aug. 16, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Nancy8, the only scenario where I can see a batter doing this is if he thought a defensive player caught a fly ball when in actuality he didn’t. Like a short hop. Is this in the ASA book? |
| Aug. 16, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Stick8, as I recall it used to be in both ASA and NSA, I but checked both, and neither is worded that way now. I only had it happen once (last century). He thought that he hit it out. I just didn't think that it was going to make it. Bang, off the fence, he's in the dugout, dead ball, out. BJ, thank you for pointing out again that we enforce the rules as they are written. Our personal feelings on a rule have zero bearing on making the correct call. The rules are the rules. |
| Aug. 16, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I've been waiting for your thinly vailed pot shot Nancy because you can't explain a rule as well as I can. You would think between BJ and yourself with all your experience, both of you would at least comprehend a rule and how to properly enforce it. I can't help it that I constantly have to explain even the most basic of rules and why the wording of some don't correlate with the actual rule book. 8.3 • BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT C. When he fails to advance to first base and enters his team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, or catcher obstruction. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot advance. I am going to break this ruling down so maybe the two of you can understand where you're wrong. Rule 8.3 says WHEN THE BATTER RUNNER ENTERS THE DUGOUT (TEAM AREA), the umpire SHOULD declare the ball dead and the player out. IT IS AT THAT TIME ALL PLAYING ACTION CEASES!!!!!! It doesn't matter if all runners on base score, as long as the player hasn't entered the TEAM AREA before they HAVE LEGALLY CROSSED THE RUNNING LINE. AGAIN, THE BALL IS DEAD...........AT THE TIME THE UMPIRE STOPS ALL PLAYING ACTION. AT THIS TIME, RUNNERS CAN'T ADVANCE ANY FURTHER....JUST LIKE WHEN A THROW COMES IN FROM THE OUTFIELD AND THE UMPIRE DECLARES TIME. YOU DON'T SEND THE RUNNERS BACK TO THE BASE THEY WERE LEGALLY OCCUPYING AT THE TIME OF THE PITCH. PLEASE INGRAIN THIS INTO YOUR BRAINS...........NO WHERE DOES IT READ RUNNERS SHOULD/MUST RETURN TO THEIR LEGALLY OBTAINED BASE AT THE TIME THE BATTER HIT THE BALL!!!!!! Also take note, these aren't my personel feelings. AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO ENFORCE THE RULES AS WRITTEN, AT THE VERY LEAST KNOW HOW TO COMPREHEND WHAT IS WRITTEN. P.S. ~ You might want to try partronizing someone else since what I say seems to go right over your heads and hits the wall. That's what that big splat noise is you two keep hearing. Talk about bringing protest money. Seesh! |
| Aug. 17, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Stick8, in the scenario I gave, it was an NSA game. We had talked about that rule in clinics. After it happened I reviewed the rule again and talked with my UIC who verified that this was correct at that time (probably 20 years ago). I cannot say for sure that this was an ASA rule ever, but since NSA and SSUSA had/have it, I would guess that was where it originated but don't have an ASA rulebook that old to check that. Perhaps this would be a good rule for someone to submit to the rules committee for a proposed change. |
| Aug. 17, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne.. again you are wrong and reading the rule the way you want to.. I do give you credit though for at least posting the correct rule this time..big improvement.. the effect of the rule is very specific.. I questioned this same rule over a year ago in an e-mail to SENIOR SOFTBALL ..July of 2017.. I figured i would add that since you are a man who tends to remember specifics.. below is part of the reply based on a bases loaded walk.. but the rule is the same for a base hit and is stated in the last line of the EFFECT... July 2017 REPLY FROM SENIOR SOFTBALL... The advance of runners in a walk situation is predicated on the theory that runners on base when a walk occurs advance only if forced to do so ... And since the batter never legally acquired first base, no such forced advancement is present ... The runner on third stays (or is turned back around) when first base isn't legally acquired ... Again I don't like the EFFECT of the rule.. but it's the way SENIOR SOFTBALL has chosen to write it |
| Aug. 17, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | From what I've been recently led to believe, a base on balls is a dead ball award. If the ball is dead when the batter-runner enters the dugout, you would actually be making the ball dead again that is still dead to begin with. Catcher's obstruction is a delayed dead ball. So if the batter hits a liner to the pitcher that is caught and doesn't know that obstruction has occurred and runs straight into the dugout, you are going to call them out again also. You do know that the offense has the choice of the batter taking first base or the result of the play. All runners forced to advance are awarded one base. So it doesn't even make sense if the batter thought he was out anyway. Say pitcher catches the ball and tries to double a runner off third. He throws the ball away and runners from 3rd and 2nd score. Are you going to bail the defense out for their shoddy play? I'm not. For the record all runners whether forced or not are entitled to advance one base without liability of being put out. On a base hit the ball is live at all times until the umpire declares time and that is when playing action has ended. As I earlier stated, runners cannot advance <<< And you're right, the rule is poorly worded. As I've mentioned about some rules earlier they are poorly written. Why you need to comprehend more than that the little two sentence blurb that consists of some rules. And for the record, baseball has this worded much differently. The ball is not dead. When the batter-runner is declared out for failure to touch first base, the batter is automatically out when they leave the dirt part of home plate without attempting to go first. Example: Batter strikes out but the third stike isn't caught cleanly. Catcher airmails the throw into right field. Batter walking back to the dugout steps off the dirt area. He is still out and runners can still advance. Unless there were two outs. Then anything that happens after that is moot. |
| Aug. 18, 2018 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Wayne sounds like you might know Baseball but not so much about softball. |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Garocket, I'll put it like this, baseball and their rules were around a long time before softball and their rules. Softball has merely taken most of the rulings from baseball and tweaked them to their style of play. It sure ain't nothing they thought up for themselves. Because of the errors in the OBR, MLB has pretty much done a complete rewrite recently to eliminate them. There were about 250, maybe more at one time. Don't know if they got them all this time either. |
| Aug. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne, you are correct.. but even though the rules needed some tweaking the umpires still called the rule the way it was written not as how they thought it should be.. senior softball officials meet yearly to discuss issues like this and hopefully they will give a close look at the wording of this rule at their next meeting |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, there have been a lot of rules over the years that were written wrong or were maybe even just stupid, but you are correct that it is our job to call them exactly as they are written and not do our own thing. A good example is a major softball association recently changed a rule that if a runner is hit with a batted ball while on base that it is a live ball now. I hope that it never happens to me when calling one of their games. Someone gets hit with a ball, and now you want them to run? Crazy. They still have it as a dead ball out when the runner gets hit off the base. This was after I thought that they got smart by eliminating the courtesy foul which over all of their games that I did only wasted time and made for some dangerous foul ball hits. To be fair, the two other major associations had/have rules that I didn't think were right, a short lived automatic ejection jewelry rule and allowing metal cleats while advocating bat and ball safety. I still enforce those rules because my beliefs are not important, enforcing those rules as written is. As far as the SSUSA rule that we are discussing, it would have to be submitted as a proposed rule change for it to be considered. Bringing up a dropped third strike in this discussion further illustrates a complete lack of understanding of slow pitch softball. |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Sigh........I brought up the instance of a "dropped third strike" to illustrate an instance when the ball is declared dead and isn't. Softball has never had a dropped third strike. In the past, the batter was declared out when they entered the dugout.........however the ball wasn't declared to be dead either. I am not comparing baseball to softball. I am pointing out how the wording of Rule 8.3 doesn't correlate with other definitions and instances found in other parts of the rule book. I trying to tell some people that << |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Sorry for all the typos. Trying to post from my phone. This place could use an edit function. |
| Aug. 19, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | I think it's obvious why SSUSA has explained the foul tip rule.. it's to explain the rule so that baseball umpires that are calling softball games do not call a batter out on a batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head and is legally caught by the catcher with less than 2 strikes.. although I am assuming that they had bothered to read the rules first |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Nope, just not necessary if you're going to kill the play anyway and declare it a foul ball. why does it have to be a foul tip first? Just address it under the definition of foul ball. Pay closer attention and you might learn something someday. Read 7.5 and see what you make of that one the way it is written. Sounds like it could use a rewrite itself. Perhaps you can explain that one to me also, Lucy. |
| Aug. 19, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, excellent point. You made me realize that I forgot that there were people who didn't know slow pitch softball reading. The jewelry rule that I referred to was only in force a couple of years in one major association. The rule as written and enforced was immediate ejection of any offensive or defensive player if we saw it. Yes, I thought that it was a stupid rule, and it caused lots of bad situations, but I enforced it because it was the rule. I have never said that I was a great umpire, and I don't remember you ever saying that you were. We both have excellent resumes, but we are not the ones tooting their own horn. I am proud of us for enforcing the rules as written. Anything else is imaginary. These associations work very hard on writing and changing rules, and rules are worked out in meetings with discussion. SSUSA has one of the better written rulebooks as there are people with journalism experience doing the writing and editing. |
| Aug. 20, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Nancy Allen writes: SSUSA has one of the better written rulebooks as there are people with journalism experience doing the writing and editing. Correction: They are or they're would work quite nicely also. See how you can easily replace one word with another and it makes more sense. I would settle for some rule knowledge also. Is that why Dave uses rulings out of the MLB rulebook....because the SSUSA is so well written. Like I stated earlier THERE ARE [not they're or they are] copyright laws. I haven't heard a peep out of him since I reminded him of such. You can enforce any rule any way you see fit. Doesn't mean you're right. You would think with all that experience between the both of you, at least you might want to take the blinders off once in while. You might actually learn something. I guess it is true what they say, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." I'm not tooting my own horn, I'm letting the two of you know you ain't dealing with somebody that is fresh off the boat, but honed their craft as well as possible......and who was also willing to listen and learn. Back then if I was willing to do a lot of traveling, I could have worked D-1 baseball as I was offered the opportunity. I don't just pull this stuff right out of thin air. Too be brutally honest, I would probably prefer bamboo shoots jammed under my fingernails than umpire senior softball. I say very little to them out on the field, even when they are wrong. I prefer to play. Those green shirts aren't my color anyway and look hideous to begin with. Your mileage my vary. |
| Aug. 20, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | well the good thing is that you have finally decided to read the rules before posting answers.. now I will try to help you out with this.. the reason for the foul tip rule is that in some organizations a caught foul tip is an out with less than 2 strikes and and it's not in SSUSA.. I do like your next post.. "I'm not tooting my own horn" .. then you go on to say.. I could have worked D-1 baseball as I was offered the opportunity... question.. do you ever get a sore shoulder from patting yourself on it |
| Aug. 20, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Looks like someone needs to learn how to use a Venn Diagram. Not all SSUSA representatives have journalism experience. |
| Aug. 20, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Would it be to much to ask for you make a Venn Diagram power point presentation so we can all know WTH you're talking about? I've been trying to have somewhat of an intellectual conversation with rules nuances and why some apply or don't. However, the two of you for some reason keep wanting to turn it into a pissing contest. Frankly, I'm ashamed of myself for getting sucked in. If you can't even wrap your mind around the fact that a person with the past credentials I have can read or comprehend a rule perhaps a little better than you in some instances, that is your problem, not mine. I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm stating facts. I'll be honest, I only knew the most basic of rules when I first started. But, I kept my mouth shut, my eyes and ears open, and asked pertinant questions. That's what paid off in the long run. I dressed professional when on the field. I hustled to my positions. My mechanics were sharp. Like most slow pitch umpires, I didn't look like I just rolled out bed. Veteran baseball coaches take note of these things. Experience and rules knowledge are something that come with time. I critiqued myself in a blog after every game and would spend free time reading and comprehending the rules. As I mentioned earlier, I had the tutaledge of professionally trained umpires. Some from MLB and some from MiLB. Other more senior umpires also helped me on numerous times Needless to say, I worked my butt off. I'm only trying to pass along some of my experiences and knowledge that I gained in working games from all levels down to coach pitch and up to NJCAA on occasions. To be brutally honest, you two remind me of a person who is commonly termed as Smitty in umpire ranks. Smitty is the guy that has done and seen everything, never shuts up on the field constantly bragging about themselves while missing calls because they weren't paying attention, etc. Smitty is the one they are talking about when they ask the question, "What is wrong with that guy?" Don't be "that guy". |
