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Online now: 2 members: Randy17, TABLE SETTER 11; 81 anonymousDiscussion: Was the ump right??
| Posted | Discussion |
| June 29, 2018 garyheifner 649 posts | Was the ump right?? Grounder to the SS. He airmails the throw over the 1st base man's head. As he starts to chase the ball, it rebounds off the fence and right to him. He jumps towards the bases and touches the orange bag a 1/2 step ahead of the runner. The runner slightly cked up and reached for the white base. Ump calls out-was that right??? |
| June 29, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | garyheifner ... PROBABLY NOT ... On a "play at first", the defender is required to make the play by touching the white portion of the double bag (in fair territory), and the batter-runner must touch "some portion of the orange bag" (in foul territory) ... Here's an excerpt of the applicable Rulebook provision [emphasis added] governing the call ... You didn't mention any facts regarding the "avoiding a collision" exception, so we presume it did not exist in your situation ... __________ §8.4(1) • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE "..A double bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire's judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision ... Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out. Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion.." |
| June 30, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Garyheifner as you describe the situation and presuming there was the double bag at first that ump was incorrect. |
| June 30, 2018 garyheifner 649 posts | Thanks |
| June 30, 2018 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | I understand the rule but, as written the batter-runner is given leeway to touch the white portion to avoid a collision but the first baseman is not allowed the same leeway to avoid acollision and touch the Orange portion. At rule "face value" (and facetiously) the first baseman does not have to "avoid a collison" when attempting an out and must touch the white bag ? |
| June 30, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | titanhd ... Not sure I can buy into your in-equality analysis as logical ... Yes, everyone should avoid a collision if at all possible ... But allowing the defender, usually the first baseman or occasionally a pitcher, to record an out after an imperfect throw pulled him off the white bag to the orange one rewards the defense for what would otherwise be an error ... The "collision avoidance" exception is almost always initiated and dictated solely by the defender's actions ... It's very rare (non-existent?) that the "collision avoidance" exception is triggered by a defender peeking to his left toward home and and bailing out because of seeing the batter-runner bearing down on him inside the foul line ... We're comfortable with limiting the defender to the white bag only for a put-out ... |
| July 2, 2018 curty Men's 60 187 posts | in this scenario wouldn't the runner be out for NOT touching orange on a play at first? |
| July 2, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | curty ... With the defender on/crossing the orange bag, the batter-runner took the only route available to avoid a collision by going to the white bag ... That's permitted and could even be inferred as mandated for safety ... It affirms our theory that collision avoidance situations almost always start because of actions by the defender ... If the defender stays on the white bag as required by rule, it's a routine "out/safe" timing call and this conversation doesn't happen ... |
| July 2, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | It is interesting how a simple decision to add an orange bag for safety added so many complications. Almost every association has a different set of rules for it, another thing that gets umpires in trouble. titanhd, ASA lets the defender get the out on the orange ONLY if the throw takes them there. ASA is the only one that does that. |
| July 2, 2018 DW_7 Men's 50 15 posts | No. I believe the ump made a mistake. Based on your description of the play, and as an umpire myself, I'm calling the runner SAFE. Under SCMAF (SoCal sanctioning body) Rules, a defender can never record an out to a batter-runner by contacting the ORANGE base. That Orange side exists exclusively for the batter-runner and exists for the players mutual safety. I'm also calling the runner safe if the defender touches both White and Orange bases at the same time. But, by touching the Orange bag only, prior to the runner reaching either base, it forces the batter-runner to go around the defender. Therefore, the defender never touched the proper (White) base and the batter-runner merely attempted to avoid a colllision. I'm calling the runner safe without a doubt because the defender was the first to violate a rule forcing a second violation by another player. And, I'm likely warning/advising the 1B-man never to touch the Orange side if a batter-runner is headed to 1B. If he says he also was seeking to avoid a collision, I'm going to tell him that does not make the Orange bag his to tag. Conversely, if the runner crossed just before the defender got to the bag, and the runner touched all or part of the White bag, and the defender claims they tried to avoid a collision by touching the Orange base, Im calling the runner out; but NOT because the defender touched the Orange bag before the runner got there, but because the batter-runner is not allowed to touch the White base, or both bases, on any play where the defender and batter-runner are both at the base. (Note: after the batter-runner crosses the Orange base properly, the Orange base is no longer his under any conditions. So, for example, the batter-runner rounds first base or perhaps makes a move toward 2nd base but changes his/her mind & scrambles to return to the base before being tagged, that player is now a "runner" not a batter-runner meaning that if he/she scrambles back to first base but touches only the Orange base, and then is tagged, that runner is OUT. Different organizations may interpret or prefer different rulings so check with your league, umpire or tournament director to be sure. |
| July 5, 2018 Pa 40 posts | question 1, may i ask is the orange bag a appeal play or does the umpire call the runner out for hitting the white bag. question 2, if a guy hits a single and hits the orange bag not the white and stretches his single into a double and we appeal it is the runner out |
| July 5, 2018 Pa 40 posts | i lived in vegas when the orange bag came out and it was only good for a infield play any ball the went to the outfield made the white bag the only bag in play |
| July 5, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Pa ... It might (undoubtedly?) be very informative if you were to carefully read the entire rule §8.4(1) • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE on page 46 of the Official SSUSA Rulebook ... Here are the semi-short answers to your questions ... [1] "..This is NOT an appeal play.." is a verbatim quote from the rule ... It's solely the umpire's call ... The back half of your question 1 is what causes almost all of the problems ... The batter-runner is NOT PROHIBITED from touching the white bag ... However, he IS required to touch "..some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory.." ... That's another verbatim quote from the rule ... So, if he steps on the centerline between the bases, hitting both the white AND the orange simultaneously, he has complied with the rule to touch the orange bag and the call is SAFE ... [2] NO ... The rule applies only ".. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base.." ... That's verbatim quote #3 from the rule ... You appear to want to impose an obligation on the batter-runner to go "white only" (like in the good old days of your next post) if there is no play at first ... The last part of the rule states that once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and and the runner and/or defenders may use either portion ... Our opinion is that the moment the batter-runner touches the orange bag under any circumstances, or the white base in the absence of a play at first, it's a single, merged bag ... There is NO obligation placed on the runner anywhere in the rule other than to make contact with the orange bag if there is a play at first ... Hope this helps ... |
| July 5, 2018 Pa 40 posts | Thank you Dave we had a play at first the runner hit the white bag i was watching from the dugout and told the umpire he hit the white bag and he stayed quit after the play he told me i he saw it the same and it was a appeal play and you are right i should read it so i would of stuck to my guns and got the director |
| July 6, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | That's correct ... The two important things to remember are: [1] The batter-runner should be called out ONLY if he fails to touch "some portion" of the orange bag on a play at first ... Touching the white bag is irrelevant IF he also touches the orange bag simultaneously; and [2] the call is on the umpire and is NOT an appeal play ... |
