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| June 23, 2018 garyheifner 649 posts | Terminology This may sound silly on the surface. However, we have had 5 maybe 6 instances this season where the ump had trouble getting the multi-syllable word ILLEGAL sounded out in time as to not stick it to the batter. Maybe time for 1 syllable words. If the pitch is HIGH, then say HIGH. If the pitch is FLAT, then say FLAT. Simple-easy |
| June 24, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | gary.. I'm not disagreeing with you but I think the late illegal calls from the umpire are mainly because they are not ready to make the call.. umpires need to assess the situation on every pitch and be ready, just like a fielder should do before every play.. probably 90% of the illegal pitches come on certain counts on a batter.. especially after 2 strikes |
| June 24, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Gary, since the call is made based on the height of the arch, it is very hard to get that call out timely on the flat ones since they arrive quicker. There are also a lot of umpires that have no experience doing it. In my experience only ASA and senior softball have that call, and ASA dropped their maximum arch from 12" to 10" reducing the number of umpires who are sure what 12" is. Also in young guys, they play the other associations and do complain that the call messes up their swing. Of course the flat pitch again is the bigger problem. I am not a fan of calls that get the umpire in trouble. Your reference to "sticking" it to the batter makes a good point for getting rid of that call completely. I do call illegal and always have, but it can can be a problem. Again the flat pitch always seems to be the bigger issue. Too many pitchers now play associations that allow a pitch way below 6' and get pretty rowdy if you keep calling it illegal even though it clearly is. So, no, it is not time to change the word. You are a good batter and do not need an umpire to help you pick your pitches. You do make a good case for eliminating the call. BJ, you are right on readiness, but I don't know how we can teach that or get them to think that it is important. I am completely discouraged after going to a park and watching an umpire text between pitches. You are right that a good pitcher probably pushes the limit either way with 2 strikes. So Gary has made me wonder if with the infusion of younger guys and the change in opinion based on age between 0-0 vs 1-1 count, is the illegal call old school and needs to be eliminated? |
| June 24, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | Nancy.. i think it's even more important when starting with a 1-1 count.. the awareness of pitch count and runners on base is something I stress when giving clinics.. I go over scenarios and stress to new umpires and even experienced umps that you should ALWAYS expect the pitcher to CHEAT.. be waiting for it and if you are you will definitely have time to say illegal |
| June 24, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Garyheifner I believe it’s an excellent topic. Quite a few years ago I had the advantage of being trained by a local ASA umpire. He could not stress enough screaming out “ILLEGAL” if you felt the arc of the pitch was over 12 ft or under 6 ft in arc. Scream it out at that moment “so the whole world can hear it”, he used to say. If they elect to swing at it then it’s game on. This carries over to today’s SSUSA. As a player I guess it’s ok if they scream high or flat as long as they say it so i can hear it while the pitch is in the air. As an umpire I would defer to Dave Dowell or BJ on that one. Far too many umpires don’t say anything or only signal. To me that is sad, especially in a SSUSA qualifier or national tournament where many teams spend a fair amount of money to attend. It’s in the rules. Whoever runs the umpires at these SSUSA events should make certain their crew knows this. Stress it over and over and over again. And BJ is correct, as usual!! Lots of pitchers will cheat, although I say they are looking to see what they can get away with. Umpires should establish themselves with the arc right away with no surprises at the end of the game. If the pitch is illegal in the first inning it’s illegal in the open inning. Just my $0.02 worth |
| June 24, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | stick.. I always call illegal loud enough for the batter and the catcher to easily hear, along with the outstretched left arm for the fielders.. and when I use the term cheat I mean it in the way that the pitcher will most likely exceed 12' or be below 6' on a pitch |
| June 24, 2018 garyheifner 649 posts | Nancy U brought up a whole different subject that should be addressed. In our 3 tournaments this year, the 12 foot arc has been quite a problem. What is 12' switches from ump to ump, game to game, batter to batter and even while the same batter is in the box during the same at bat. I would, as a hitter and part time pitcher, like to see senior softball go to the 6' to 10' arc. I think an ump could easier visualize a yard stick on a pitchers head plus a little more. I think this would create more good pitches to hit and probably eliminate the 1-1 count trials. |
| June 24, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, you definitely have my respect. I will enforce whatever rules are in the book, always have. Gary's discussion made me really think about how much more trouble umpires get into with that call. I am definitely under 6'. So when a ball's highest arch is eyeball high on me, it is definitely illegal. Then the pitcher says it was over his head? That is not possible unless I was 7' just for that pitch. Gary, now that is an interesting concept too. With ASA reducing from 12' to 10', you have a valid point. When most umpires aren't familiar with 12', I get that this might help umpires to get it right. |
| June 25, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | In my opinion pitch height should be moved to 10' right now with most umps and this is all senior associations. The height called is basically 8-14'. Can't tell you how many pitches I have seen in the 6 to 7' range called flat next pitch around 14' called a strike. Bring it down to 10' like every other association except seniors and it would help some of these umps who don't know the difference between 12 and 14 or better. |
| June 25, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Lb16, well, you represent where I thought this might be a popular thought. Gary is a little older, but I never saw this coming as a suggestion. In theory I agree with it only because of current umpire experience. I will admit since ASA came down to 10' that 12' does look taller than it used to only because I don't see it as often anymore. Suggestions are generally not taken from the message board. The proper route is to suggest it as a potential rule change for consideration at the convention. Gary, thank you for the unexpected twist. |
| June 26, 2018 HJ Men's 70 481 posts | I have been told that if an illegal pitch is thrown (too high or too low) and not called, and then hits the strike mat and the batter does not swing, that the umpire can call this a ball and say I should have called the illegal pitch. Basically the theory being to make it right. 1. Is this correct? Can the ump do this? 2. If correct, I can't find a reference to it in the SSUSA rules or in the ASA rules. Is there one? |
| June 26, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | HJ, to me it is a correctable error. I am not sure that the terminology appears in any of the rulebooks that I have ever seen of any association. We do discuss it in umpire clinics. Like I said above, this is often more of a problem on the flat pitches because the highest point of the arch causes that ball to come in a lot faster. In younger guys' softball, they love to hit that flat pitch. Of course this brings up another problem, since many do not understand geometry, and that there is so little time to call it at its highest point that the batter is already in the middle of their swing. Yes, they will sure let you know that they think that you messed up their swing. Even so I tend to call the flat pitch louder because typically that ball is going right back at the pitcher; so I want him to hear it too. Basically as an umpire, you cannot win with this call, and it will get you in trouble no matter what you do. Oh, well, it is the rule, and I will use it. Of course this comes from a batter who has the philosophy that it is bad luck to swing at a good pitch...me. |
| June 29, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Unfortunately this has happened to me on occasion and what I do is make the call, admit my mistake and apologize to both teams. If the ump missed screaming “illegal” (if it was indeed was too high or flat) they still must make a call on the pitch and get it right. |
| June 29, 2018 rtaven Men's 70 43 posts | Only the top 10% of umpires understand what 6' is. I personally can not throw a pitch under 6' from 6' behind rubber without fast pitch motion. I have tried and thought was under 6' but after reviewing film realized it was over 6'. Set camera half way between pitcher and home at side angle and put something 6' high such as a camera tripod or use fence rail a lot of rails are at 6'on other side. you will be surprised at how hard it is to throw under 6". |
| June 29, 2018 DieselDan Men's 75 600 posts | I wonder how many umpires, who know how tall they are, take the time to stand close enough to a pitcher to get an idea how tall they are? This info should eliminate any questions/beefs about possible under 6' pitches. |
| June 29, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Rtaven, by your definition I guess that I am in the bottom 90 percent. That being said, I am 5' tall, and I know where 6' is. It is where the cookie jar is, my arm fully extended above my head. I don't need to stand next to any pitcher to know that. I don't think that any umpire does. I do know some that put the bill of their cap at a certain angle to determine it better, but they are much taller than me. As for me, I wake up 5' every morning. Do pitchers get 5' 10" arches out of me? I am sure that they have, but players forget that only the very top of the ball needs to reach 6', not the entire ball. It seems like you have studied this a lot. I am not sure that all of your observations have a solid foundation using simple geometry. Have you ever umpired? I mean this all respectfully as I am always trying to learn and respect my elders. |
| June 29, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Nancy ... I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to fathom why the height of ANY pitcher, batter or umpire even enters this discussion of what constitutes a legal pitch arc ... The Rulebook (on page 34) is reasonably clear on this, and makes NO mention of the height of the people involved in the game ... ________ §6.3 • THE ARC The height of a legal pitch must be from six to 12 feet above the playing surface. |
| June 29, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Dave, oddly enough that is sort of my point. 6' is always 6'. I have never used a pitcher's height to judge the height of the pitch ever. I do have friends that use the bill of their cap. I use myself. If the top height of the ball is my eyes it's illegal, and I know where a foot taller is. Of course there is always that pitcher that says it was over his head which would have made me 7' 3" for that moment in time. Now of course I wonder why it is not six to twelve or 6 to 12. I never noticed that before. |
| June 29, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Nancy ... That presentation is an "element of style" in writing ... Generally, integers from zero to nine are spelled out in words. Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words (16 or sixteen, 84 or eighty-four, 200 or two hundred). Numbers between 21 and 99 are hyphenated (including when part of a larger number): fifty-six or fifty-six thousand but five hundred or five thousand. [Class dismissed] |
| June 29, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Dave, thank you for the lesson. The editors are all in your court; so I know that you are right. I just do business writing and try to not mix the numbers and words. My only real skill is not using over 2 syllable words on the diamond and to never say renege or mulligan when discussing anything during the game. I am sure that I have told you that story before. It might be my funniest one. Wait, did you say may? |
| June 30, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wow...lol... integers, hyphenated... and here I am just a poor retired auto worker heading over to get my dictionary again.. Dave I asked you before not to use more than t2o syallable words.. no wonder I struggle with the s6x to tw12ve foot arch call |
| June 30, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, thank you for the smile. Maybe I need to retire too. Maybe someday I can tell you that story. I learned to umpire in the inner city. I just remember a conversation involving the word podium. What did you call me? |
| June 30, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Dave, I think height becomes a relative easy guide post for those weekend warriors who play the game and have not had formal training in umpiring. Assuming an average height of 6 foot for pitcher, then another 6 footer of which I am, the pitch would have to be slightly above the pitchers hear to account for eye level being some 3/4 inches below. Nancy's 5 foot status would have to adjust it a bit upward and a taller ump would adjust it a lit lower. Yes, we know it's a standard 6 feet but something which people can relate to (a person's height) gives everyone an opinion. I guess that might be why there's less complaining about 12 feet since no-one is approaching that height yet. As baseball is talking about possibly instituting a mechanical strike zone to make for a more consistent strike zone, I'm working on a portable laser height zone that can be installed behind the umpire to judge the 6-12 foot limits. Rental fees for those could easily be added onto the tournament team fees, but think of the accuracy you'll have on illegal height pitches. I've yet to overcome the problem of the lazer blinding the pitcher but I'm working on it. LOL Enjoy the game people, we are playing a kids game and hope the umpires are just consistent with their calls on this one. |
| June 30, 2018 Tremor 15 posts | 6-10 foot arc? You've got my vote! Definitely would be easier for batters and umps to judge it. |
| June 30, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | k man ... Keep a pencil and notepad by your Lazy-Boy recliner and jot down and call the "800" number the next time you see that George Foreman ad for "Inventor Help"! ... LOL! |
| July 1, 2018 Graphite 56 posts | May I suggest the clinic trainers use a 12 ft. bream buster with a little ribbon on the tip. Place it at the arcs highest point and have a pitcher throw and you can get a pretty good idea what 12 ft. looks like. You can even take one with you to brush up.Pearl knows! |
| July 1, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | K man, nice thinking. I don't like to tell you this, but I don't get in a lot of trouble on the high end which could impact your sales. Now there is always a game now and then where you hear crap, but this is more usually the pitcher wanting that 14'. Most of the issues now seem to come with the flat pitch in games in my opinion. There are associations that allow a much lower pitch. When many of us grew up, there was only ASA which was 6' - 12'. It is what we played. What I find interesting is players saying go to 10'. I didn't see that coming. I truly don't know the logic that ASA used when they went from 12' to 10'. I believe that they changed their run rules that same year to more closely mirror run rules of other associations. Maybe they were giving into current "standards". I will have to think on whether the 50s dislike 12' more because they are not used to it. I personally think that 12' gives the pitcher a way to change pitch delivery timing. Graphite, I have umpired a long time. Years ago there were lots of clinics in my local area. I went to them and learned a lot. Now there are few, and the ones that I have been to have not been of the quality of the past. None talk about seniors. In my opinion I think that all senior associations may have issues because they have to rely on local talent in umpiring. Let's face it, they are usually used to a 10' arc and not calling illegals. I do a lot of ASA. We call illegals, but the other 2 associations do not and are used to 10'. So with Utrip umpires, I think that we have problems with a low pitch. With ASA and NSA we have problems with other rules being different. Pitches though are the most critical element to the game. So several have expressed going to 10'. Are that and the illegal call outdated? Thanks for a brain teaser. |
| July 1, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | I think ASA went to 10' because they mainly do young guys .. not much senior ball .. it does not matter what arc you umpire/play.. either an umpire has judgement or they don't.. the main thing is being consistent on what your calling through out the game.. umpires get in trouble when they change after hearing the players whine about pitches.. stay consistent.. the pitchers and batter will adjust to your strike zone.. today your 12' arc may be 11 and tomorrow it may be closer to 13.. trust me it does change |
| July 1, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, I agree that attrition may have been the reason for ASA's change. We all know what it did to the starting pitch count. I appreciate your common sense and that you are much more concise than me in expressing thoughts. I have been very fortunate in my 21 years with senior softball and over 30 years with slow pitch softball that I have had a very diverse education. Of course this doesn't help me in "real" life. |
| July 2, 2018 DW_7 Men's 50 15 posts | I ump Major League Softball a little in SoCal where all umpires must be certified by SoCal Municipal Athletic Federation (SCMAF). For league play, it's 16' max and THAT is not always easy for an umpire to guage. You just try to be consistent. But to the original topic, for years now, when doing LEAGUE and MOST tournaments, I just use the appropriate hand signal for "delayed dead ball" (left arm extended flat) and say "FLAT" or "HIGH". It works, it's easy to say quickly and players have no problem with it. What others said above is SO true. Umpires must be ready to call a FLAT pitch because they do arrive more like a fastball. If you weren't ready to call it and it does come in flat & fast, as long as the batter does not swing at it I will still call it flat, post pitch, & explain to the batter/managers (if necessary) that indeed the ball arrived quicker than I could make the call. No one ever cares (except maybe the pitcher who thought he could sneak a fastball past the batter) I always prioritize getting it right over the letter of the rule when possible. ALSO, flat pitches are also "cookies" or the easiest to hit so it's almost hard sometimes to call flat when it's an absolute MEAT pitch. BTW, here in SoCal, one tournament association min. height is the batter's waist but it must have a hump. This means a whole day of being ready to call flat or illegal due to no hump. I hate it almost as much as I hate picking 16' out of the sky. Umps = underpaid . |
| July 3, 2018 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | Great topic and discussion: I have been doing ASA slow pitch for over 25 yrs and of course play Sr Softball (and pitch I might add) so I agree with BJ and others in that trying to be consistent is my main goal. Understanding the count is key, knowing that when their is 2 strikes and less than 3 balls pitcher will try and get the batter to hit their pitch (I know I do). I will also say I am guilt of saying "flat" on the low pitches with the hand signal, easier to get out quicker. I am also a very LOUD guy so I have stopped YELLING illegal, I say it so batter and catcher can hear me (on a high pitch I always point up when I say illegal so pitcher knows what I called). And as far as coming down to 6 - 10, well I believe that will come eventually just like 1- 1. Will start on a trial basis with the younger guys who have played with 6 - 10 and then will be here for good (IMO). Of course by then hopefully I will be old enough to still have 12 feet. I remember the good old days when all my leagues were unlimited arc, they were fun! |
| July 3, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | DW_7, I have never worked any games that had a 16' arch. I have heard my friends talk about unlimited arch in Canada and of the few years that it was used in ASA. Of course the older players also told me that when slow pitch started that they laughed because it would never catch on as they all played fast pitch. Today there is only one park that plays fast pitch locally, and many of the teams use a woman pitcher because it seems to be a lost art for men. It will probably disappear from here eventually. Thanks also for agreeing with me on the flat pitch coming in fast enough to not give much time. Players seem to be really rough on umpires for not getting that word out fast enough to make their batting decision on the flat ones. Of course I know a few players that as soon as I start to say it are swinging. Some tell me that they like when I say it (maybe my gender?) and others that say that they just like hitting that flat pitch. Of course there are always the ones that want to tell you that you messed up their swing. mck71, I have been involved with slow pitch softball in many capacities for 31 years. I played ASA because it was all that we had. Then NSA became the predominant association here. The first NSA park in the country was Midwest where the Brickyard qualifier is held. I started umpiring in 1996 but did not start working ASA until 1997. I did my first SSUSA tournament in 1998. I was fortunate enough to work the SSWC in 1999 - 2001. I mostly do ASA now for a variety of reasons. Most umpires here do not. You are right that it helps to know what pitchers are doing although some have no logic. We have too many umpires that really do not understand the game or are a player that thinks that they know everything. I am loud, but I stick to the words in the book. So it is illegal that I say. I am louder on the flat pitch because I want the pitcher's attention to field that ball. I try to be consistent. Hustle and fairness are other things that I would like to be known for. It really bothered me going to an ASA tournament a couple of months ago to watch my friends play, and they were giving a 4' arch. Utrip is really messing up what umpires call and players swing at here. I was surprised by all of the guys that said go to 6' - 10'. I guess that I should have expected it with attrition just like 1-1 counts. It actually is probably not a bad idea as most umpires are used to 10' but not 12'. I have wished before that ASA would eliminate the illegal call especially after they modified so many other things to better fit what was happening in the other associations. Of course I also wish that they would get rid of metal cleats. Perhaps the illegal call is a thing of the past. It sure would help keep the umpires out of trouble. I am always a fan of that. We can get in enough trouble anyway without adding reasons for it. |
| July 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | So I am officiating a senior game today. I had a pitcher that was throwing pitches at my eyes or below quite a lot. I am only 5' tall; so a pitch has to be over my head to even be eligible as a strike. His catcher tried to tell me that all of the other umpires were calling 5' - 10', and I should too. After the game the pitcher tried to tell me that I was going to get a pitcher killed not giving that flat pitch. Now I could understand that if I was giving the flat pitch, but I don't call it anything but illegal. The good thing about me though is that I don't mind him blaming me because I am going to sleep alright tonight, and I want him too also. They only lost by double digits. So how does not giving a flat pitch going to kill a pitcher? Funny but sad. |
| July 29, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Sometimes the problem stems from the first inning. As an umpire, in the early innings (especially the 1st) if a pitch was even borderline high or low I never called it a strike. Once you set your limits you have boxed yourself in and pitchers, (rightly so) push the limit in both directions. I think it's easy to see which umpires actually played the game because of the zone they call, after playing for sometimes decades you just develop an eye for the zone that can't be taught with a book or a description on a chalkboard. Also, as with any call made, say it boldly and with authority, you get less argument that way. |
| July 29, 2018 Parman Men's 65 40 posts | I think going to 6-10 would solve many problems. Most everything else peaks at 10 and many umpires do both senior and non-senior ballgames. Would be a lot simpler if every association had the 10 ft limit. |
| July 29, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | OZ40, I agree with all of that. This guy was just having a fit because he kept throwing flat, and I wouldn't give it to him. Just because he perceived that all the other umpires were giving it, did not mean that I was going to change for him. You know the saying, give the lady what she wants. Parman, after this weekend, I may agree. Most umpires call 10' all the time especially since ASA went 10' years ago. Since we have to draw from the major associations for senior umpires, 10' is what they know and are comfortable with. I would love input on the illegal call because eliminating it might be a way to preserve 12'. The illegal call gets umpires in trouble for several reasons. I think that letting the players decide on the pitch to hit might be a way to go. I have been calling illegal for over 20 years which gives me more experience than most umpires at it. I only call it because it is the rules. I don't judge; I only enforce. |
