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Discussion: Ratings

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Feb. 15
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Can someone please explain how Enviro Vac Marauders who finished second in the Worlds in 65's Major did not get moved up to Major Plus?
Feb. 19
bbullet

38 posts
Ratings
Looks like after 367 "views" no one can explain it!
Feb. 19
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Lol! I didn't think anyone would. Funny stuff going on.
Feb. 20
BallPlayer35
Men's 60
18 posts
Ratings
Dbax, has your team ever played against Enviro Vac Marauders? If so, who won?

Feb. 20
SSUSA Staff

3528 posts
Ratings
BallPlayer35 ... We normally don't discuss individual team rating decisions publicly, but in answer to your specific question: Enviro-Vac Marauders played Arizona Ancient three times (all in bracket play) during the Winter World Championships in Phoenix last November ...

Winners' Bracket Final • AZ Ancient (15) / Enviro-Vac (11)
Championship Game #1 • Enviro-Vac (16) / AZ Ancient (9)
"If" Game • AZ Ancient (29) / Enviro-Vac (19)

Feb. 20
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Ballplayer, in addition they beat us and knocked us out of Worlds in Vegas, finishing second. New Jersey Hitmen who won, and Ancients get moved up.
Feb. 20
idahoreb
Men's 60
62 posts
Ratings
I can give you a perspective why Enviro did not get moved to Major plus and the other two did. Home runs and power hitting. If you look how the Ancients and Hitmen scored you will see home runs and power. Enviro scored with base hits and quick runners. Major plus is about power and Hitmen and Ancient have a chance of competing and scoring 7 an inning. Enviro played Major plus and couldn’t compete with the 3 run blasts every inning.
Feb. 20
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Idaho, I'm pretty sure that is not a factor. It's run differential.
Feb. 21
bond_171513
Men's 55
79 posts
Ratings
Idaho - really? "How" you win should not be a factor. If Enviro-Vac did not get bumped up - at least temporarily, then that is NOT how SSUSA normally does it. There have been many teams win at the major level that way, get bumped up to +, lose, then get moved back down. It is the correct thing to do. My friends on The Core would have loved the same treatment last year.
Feb. 21
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
Ratings
Okay I will bite.

Winning and losing is dictated by results not style. A team moves based on their performance against peer competition. I cannot remember when or if a team above and below was moved up and the middle team did not.

The World tournament epitomizes the best teams playing at that time in that age group. There are multiple examples where teams played above their seasonal results and peaked at the right time. Their success in the World Tournament resulted in the team being moved up. Cases can be made where the stars aligned and the team played above their normal success, regardless their performance resulted in their move.

Unless they retained only 6 players from the squad that played in Worlds or a number of their players were re-rated due to medical conditions, Enviro-Vac should have moved up. The size of the bracket indicated more than one team should have moved up. The Ancients moved up after their continued success in the Winter Worlds.

BTW - the definition of an M+ player/team is open to debate and was well discussed on this board earlier this year. I can think of one team, R&R, that was on the radar for years that had the same type player makeup as Enviro-Vac. They finished 2nd in the 2016 Worlds and was re-rated to M+. Enviro-Vac was M+ went 1-4 and was re-rated to Major.

No question both are bubble M+ teams, but M+ they are/were/is/maybe.

Mike Adair
Feb. 21
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Well said Michael.
Feb. 21
Enviro-Vac
Men's 65
490 posts
Ratings
I should read this Board more often.

I am providing the following facts to provide clarity and correct some misconceptions:

The top two or three placed teams do not always automatically get moved up after a championship. I give 2015 as an example. In 2015 the 65 Major World Championships consisted of 15 teams. Enviro-Vac played the Silver Streaks in the Finals that year to win the championship game by 1-run. Enviro-Vac was the only team to get moved up from that division to M+.

Enviro-Vac played 65M+ at the Winter Worlds in 2015 and all of 2016.

Enviro-Vac placed 2nd in the Worlds in 2017 losing to NJ Hitmen, a tournament in which we won and or lost most of our games by 1-run. AZ Ancients finished in 3rd place and I assume were not moved to M+ because of the 3rd place finish but rather due to winning the Winter World championships in Phoenix in 2017.
Feb. 21
Benji4
Men's 55
290 posts
Ratings
Isn't the Goal to COMPETE at the highest level possible?

So now if you win games by one run it means you are not a M+ team?

Not every team is going to be the best Major plus team but as long as you are competitive you are Major Plus.

Strive to be the best should be the new SSUSA Motto.
Feb. 21
titanhd
Men's 60
641 posts
Ratings
Enviro-Vac. There are only 3 automatic move up Tourneys. The Winter Worlds Championships is not one of them
Feb. 22
800

59 posts
Ratings
Okay I'm the manager of the Az Ancients and just to set the record straight SSUSA sent me the email of why we got bumped to Major+. They said it was because we won 3 tourneys last year the Southwest, The Western States (what...yes it's right up there with the World Masters.. and yes there was one other 65's team in the entire tournament) and the Winter Worlds. The World Masters didn't even come into play....why? Okay, according to SSUSA rating guidelines you must be winning games by 5+ runs. In the Masters we actually had a -4 total run differential in bracket play and Winter Worlds our run differential in bracket games was +2.6/game and that includes winning the if game by 10 runs. It would just be nice to have a set of rules that everyone plays by.

Walt Kado
Feb. 22
chico senior
Men's 60
134 posts
Ratings
Welcome to the world of SSUSA. In 2013, our team, North State Screenprint, were a good, not great, 55AAA team. We enjoyed getting away from NCSSA occasionally to play SSUSA big tournaments in the West. We always went to Reno so that we could play teams we would not normally play. We finished 5th in a 22 team bracket. We played way over our heads and finished 9-2. We did not reach a +5, averaged 1/3 home runs per game, and had not won any major tournaments. We got moved to Major and it has followed us to the 60’s. I have appealed the decision to SSUSA (George) 3 times and they never really explained our move up other then to say it was because of Reno. Oh, by the way, two of the teams did not get moved up that finished ahead of us. They evaluated us on one tournament, not the 3 that they claim they look at. Obviously, we had no power and still don’t. In one game we scored 42 runs without hitting a home run. Sounds like a Major team right? What actually happened is that we had 17 runs through 6 innings, had a huge 7th, and then in the extra inning scored a bunch again. Can we sometimes play with the big boys - yes. Do we have a honest chance to win the tournament - no. I know, suck it up and take the challenge. I am all for that but my feeling is that if you have not reached the pre-determined criteria fo a move up you should not be moved until you win at that level or reach the levels decided by SSUSA and mainly George.
Feb. 22
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Actually, I'm excited about playing Major Plus. Hear that Benji? I originally just wanted to know why Enviro Vac managed to slide?
Feb. 22
marcster13

103 posts
Ratings
There are often posts regarding rankings so I am curious. Is there one location on this website that has the rating process in full, in writing? Or is the ranking process all hearsay?
Feb. 22
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4351 posts
Ratings
marcster13 ... There is a pink "priority" message at the top of the Message Board called TEAM RATINGS • Guidelines & Procedures (Rev: 12/15/2015) ... It's had over 9,000 "hits" and should give you a pretty good overview ...
Feb. 23
Crusher23
Men's 55
53 posts
Ratings
Hey Dave, you guys do a tremendous job of running this organization. Most impressive is how you navigate through all the clutter (code for whining).

With regard to the team ratings; in addition to posting the guidelines and procedures on this site like you already do, have you considered posting a list of all the SSUSA teams and their associated ratings, similar to how SPA does it? It would be cool to not only see all the teams and their ratings, but to be able to drill down into the rosters as well.

Thanks for listening.
Feb. 23
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
Ratings
Posted on another thread, but applicable here also.

Nothing is ever changed through the message board. Change will only result through utilizing the process in place to affect change. I do not encourage nor support individuals calling out specific SSUSA officials for ridicule. I am extremely confident while one individual might be the spokesperson, there is probably a committee consensus on decisions that have profound affects.

The message board is a venue to share information. Regarding the 65 Ratings move. Obviously, we the unwashed masses are not "in the know" nor do we ever "have the complete" story. This board is only good for information or questions at best and at worst unfounded rumors to an audience usually not aware of things outside their own division or region.

It is an absolutely legitimate question as to why only a single team was moved up in a 20 team bracket. The reason, I say 1 out of 20 was moved because the Ancients were moved after the Winter Worlds.

I have no ax to grind in this situation nor do I care who I play, but I do believe that when rules and or standards are created they should be applied fairly throughout. I have played on M+ teams that were not truly M+ teams, but our success dictated participation in that division. So be it. I have never viewed moving up in a competition level as anything other than a challenge. My personal opinion is based on the current rules Enviro-vac and AZ Ancients are both M+. I do not mean the rule differential, but rather wins and losses, their overall success against their peer group. Quite frankly the run differential is an interesting statistic, but there are a number of teams that bat everybody in RR and 11-12 in tourney and thus games are always closer.

Mike Adair or as my wife would say, at least you are a good feet Warmer.
Feb. 24
bbullet

38 posts
Ratings
I think this has been clarified in this post - but just to make sure.. here is the post from Dave on November 20th:

Nov. 20, 2017
Dave Dowell
Topic: Tournaments

TD Tom ... The ONLY automatic move-ups occur for winners of the LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters, the SPA Nationals and the ISA Senior Worlds ... The recently concluded Winter Nationals's and Winter World's do NOT result in an automatic rating change upward for Champions ...

Consistency is the problem. In that light, if I read the tournament results correctly, since it's not been mentioned, Enviro-Vac also won the prestigious TOC Rock N Reno championship - beating the eventual Western National representative in the National Championship games - Nor Cal - by 14 runs.
Feb. 24
Dbax
Men's 65
2111 posts
Ratings
Wow, your right. I hadn't even factored in that one. And they went 6-1.
I still say there is funny stuff going on.
Feb. 24
Real Name - John White

1 posts
Ratings
The unfortunate part about message boards in general is that people for some reason do not want anyone to know who they are. That is how trolls work.
My name is John White and I play for Enviro-Vac Maruaders. Discussions and issues are much easier to resolve and explain where necessary if all parties are willing to do it in an honest manner with their names disclosed.
Cheers!
Feb. 24
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4351 posts
Ratings
bbullet ... Please don't read any more into it than what I actually typed on 11/20/17 ... The ONLY three automatic move-ups are for champions of the three events as indicated, simple as that ... Every team that gets moved up (or down) had to have played in a tournament previously ... However, correlation (a recent tournament in near proximity time-wise) does not imply causation (that the recent event was an "automatic" move) ... They are solely coincidental with respect to each other ...

Feb. 24
bbullet

38 posts
Ratings
Dave: I just read your post - and I realize it's Saturday night -- and I am NOT a doctor -- but I think you are suffering from classic case of obfuscation!! Seniors something for you to look up!!! LOL
Feb. 25
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4351 posts
Ratings
bbullet ... I may accept a "no contest" plea on your obfuscation charge! ... But to be clear, VERY often, somewhere north of 90% of the time, when a team gets moved up they ERRONEOUSLY conclude that "..we got moved up because we won the ____________ tournament! .." ... And almost always they fill in that blank with the name of the event they most recently played and won ... It's undoubtedly the most frequent faulty assumption made about the rating process ... They are correct only when the preceding event was the LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters, the SPA Nationals or the ISA Senior World Series ...

Correlation does not infer causation: Don't be like the rooster that crows before dawn every day and soon concludes that because he does so, he causes the Sun to rise! ... [grins]

Feb. 26
Webbie25
Men's 70
2416 posts
Ratings
I don't understand......
Feb. 26
softball4b
Men's 70
1250 posts
Ratings
One - DD that is funny....Two - Webbie, that is nothing new.
Feb. 26
JamesLG

421 posts
Ratings


Kind of looks like Dave has been hitting Grandpas cough medicine pretty hard lately.

James
Feb. 26
DaveDowell
Men's 70
4351 posts
Ratings
Not at all, James! ... Just looking for yet another way to say the same thing for about the 103rd time regarding "automatic" rating moves upward vs. "discretionary" moves ... Maybe someday that distinction will register ... Probably not ...
Feb. 26
JamesLG

421 posts
Ratings

Hi Dave:

You guys have a tough job when it comes to decisions like this. In the end it usually all works out as it should. I can tell you from past experience if you are playing on a team that is in a higher bracket than they should be where you know it is nearly impossible to make it till Sunday it can be a long ugly season.

Thanks:

James
Feb. 26
curveball
Men's 65
705 posts
Ratings
Ratings system alive and well, we were moved to 75 M+ today, a correct discretionary decision. Thumbs up to those that rated. System worked in our case.
Feb. 27
Pa

40 posts
Ratings
the TOC should be worlds you should have to earn your trip to be called world champs and then you have won another tournament and then when your moved up you have nothing to whine about. Plus a teams win loss next to the teams rating so you can see why they are or should be moved up or down or if a Socal team goes to play in Nor Cal they can get a look at what the teams are doing in there area .
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