Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 3 members: Jeffrey Hined, TABLE SETTER 11, dillydilly; 79 anonymousDiscussion: Umpire Got It Wrong - Loudoun VA
| Posted | Discussion |
| May 21, 2017 Crackerjack06 10 posts | Umpire Got It Wrong - Loudoun VA Just had the pleasure of participating in this weekends games Atlantic Coast Loudoun VA. However, we had an Umpire who thinks the game is about HIM! Game in question was 60M NE Sultans vs KC Renegades Saturday 2pm. 1st inning, 1st batter,lefty, takes half swing and deliberately chops down on the ball with a half swing laying a perfect slow roller that doesn't reach 3rd base. 3rd baseman has no chance of fielding the ball and making a throw to 1st base. I immediately call time and asks the home plate umpire for a ruling. Home plate umpire acknowledges the chopped ball slow roller but states he doesn't know the rule or the penalty. I then ask the home plate umpire to get assistance from his partner. They talked it over and the infield umpire states that the 3rd baseman needs to learn how to defend his position. Batter safe... are you kidding me? Now, I refer to the chopping rule and the infield umpire states lets get going. My concern is how can the home plate umpire acknowledge the chopped ball but doesn't know the rule. Why is this guy umpiring? Furthermore, why is his partner umpiring as well. To state that our 3rd baseman should learn how to play up is just shameful. Here is the rule: I think I read it right... 1.13 • CHOPPED BALL A chopped ball occurs when the batter strikes downward with a chopping motion of the bat so that the ball bounces high into the air. EFFECT: The player will be called out and the ball is dead. 7.6 • BATTER IS OUT E. When the batter bunts or chops the ball, or does not take a full swing when deliberately hitting a pitched ball. Final thought: All participating teams come to enjoy the weekend and hope to get a fair shake. But this infield Umpire in this particular game thinks the game is about him. Shame on this guy!!! "Maybe just Maybe" someone in management will have a word or 2 with this guy and pass on a rule book to him for reference? |
| May 22, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | to be honest about this call....I have umpired for 20 years in all of the big tournaments and I have NEVER seen a chopped ball called...it just doesnt happen... just as rule 7.6 on a batter taking a FULL SWING.... batters that hit to the opposite fields always take a somewhat 1/2 to 3/4 swing...again this is never called...that being said if the umpire acknowleged that it happened but didnt know of the rule then you as the manager should have asked for the UIC or a tournament director to get a ruling |
| May 22, 2017 impster23 8 posts | We also had an issue too with the umpire in the Championship game. Hitter swung at the pitch, ball hit the ground in front on him and hit him, dead ball, right? Catcher picked up the ball, tug the hitter and threw to first base where we had and runner there, double play called by both umps. What is the true call, dead ball correct? |
| May 22, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | to get a double play on any scenario like that then the umpire must not have seen the ball hit him... because once it hits him it is a dead ball...if the ball did actually hit him and he had both feet in the batters box it should have been a dead ball foul... if 1 foot was completely out of the box while exiting the box and it hit him then it would still be a dead ball but batter is out.... question on your scenario...if the catcher tagged the batter and then threw to 1st how did they get an out there??? once the batter was tagged the runner at 1st didn't have to advance...was he standing off the bag?? |
| May 23, 2017 TimMcElroy 942 posts | Tournament UIC / Field Director response: Crackerjack06: I will apologize on behalf of the umpire crew for the inappropriate comment made by that umpire. He and I will have a conversation very soon. Regarding the chopped ball play, I'm wondering if you might be confusing a chopped ball (high bouncing ball) with a softly hit ball (slow roller). The question to consider in that case is- Did the batter complete the swing? impster23: I was seated in the front row of the bleachers behind home plate (Bolen Park, F10) when this play happened and saw it differently. The ball came to rest in fair territory just out front of home plate, just inside of the foul line. The batter did not make contact with the ball as he exited the box giving us a live ball (Had he stepped on it or kicked it, the ball would have moved again). Out #1 was recorded when the catcher threw down to first for the force out. Out #2 was recorded when the Cougar defender tug the runner that started that play on 1b. On contact, your guy didn't hold the bag at 1st or break for 2nd. He chose a 3rd option- standing a few steps off of the base arguing that the ball was foul. Your team had a very good weekend. Brighter days are ahead for Lynch Construction. See you soon. Tim |
| May 24, 2017 Crackerjack06 10 posts | Tim, Thank you for understanding the true intention of the "Spirit of the Game" being disrespected by the infield umpire last Saturday afternoon. To be perfectly clear, the batter intentionally slapped, chopped bunted a ball that did not reach the base. It was a slap hit that you see in girl's softball games. It only went about 63 feet. Batter was running out of the box as he chopped at the pitch. No full swing or even a half swing -- it was a perfectly bunted ball. The Home Plate Umpire agreed with me but as I stated, he did not know what the rule was or the penalty. Now, I acted very calm and in a professional manner when I asked for time. The home plate umpire can attest to that. Furthermore, even when the infield umpire made his remark I calmly went back to pitching to the next batter. I did not show the umpire's up and I remained calm throughout the rest of the game. I did not even bring it up again until I posted it here on this message board. Thank you Tim for running a 1st class tournament! |
| May 24, 2017 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Crackerjack06, I am sorry about how the umpires reacted. This falls into the category that I call heart rules because some people get really upset and cannot understand the scenario. I usually stay away from these discussions because I know that there is nothing that I can say to change the person's opinion. However, your last post had some inconsistencies that send up a red flag. What you describe as a girls' bunted ball is not quite correct. That is a person squaring up and not swinging the bat. This would be an immediate dead ball out in slow pitch. In my 30 years of softball, I have never seen a truly chopped ball although I have seen some desperate 2 strike swings that came close. What I am reading is about a perfect slap hitter. I admire them because they place the ball well and get on a lot. You will notice in discussions that a full swing is not defined. A batter can turn over their wrists, and it is a swing. Not many people can develop this batting skill, and often people playing against them get mad about it. You are correct that they often walk a little which is fine if they do not step completely out of the box. All the ones that I have seen stayed in. I think that it would almost impossible to walk on a bunt. Remember they square up and don't swing the bat. Bunts are not judged by the distance that they travel. 63 feet is probably much further than a bunt travels even men's fast pitch which I have watched here. You are right about Tim being an awesome director. Have a great season. Nancy |
| May 25, 2017 Crackerjack06 10 posts | Nancy, Thank you for adding in the scenario of "squaring up" on a bunted ball. I did not state that the batter squared up to bunt the ball. He purposely and with great skill executed a half swing by way of chopping down on the pitched ball creating a slow roller that never reached the 3rd base bag. Again, I state that the Home Plate Umpire fully acknowledged what had occurred but did not know or understand the rule as printed in the rule book. A swinging bunt occurs when a hit ball rolls a short distance into play. In this case, the batter never took a full swing -- it was a deliberate chopping motion of the bat to purposely lay down an illegal bunted ball in a men's slow-pitch game. The REAL issue here is the Disrespect of the Game of Softball by Infield Umpire! His Remark that the 3rd Basement needs to learn how to play his position is just plain Wrong! Shame on this Umpire - Shame! |
| May 25, 2017 put me in coach 11 posts | 2008 Loudoun finals ump got it right. this situation played out in the 50 AAA finals 2008. Rochester 50's defeated Carpenters Legends , where in the final inning a Carpenters lefty was called out on a half swing roller down the third baseline. Game ended with the tying runner getting thrown out at home on a relay from the outfield. tough call, impacting, but the ump got it right that time!! |
| May 25, 2017 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Gentlemen, thank you for validating for me again that there is nothing that a person with experience can say to change someone's mind on what I call heart rules because people have beliefs that are stronger than the facts. So a few more comments and you are more than welcome to argue with me if it happens on my field. I am very approachable. You are more than welcome to call me if you want to continue this discussion. Umpire clinics are valuable for helping understand these types of situations. Perhaps you could attend one and ask about this. There is no such thing as a swinging bunt. Bunts are when the batter squares up and does not swing the bat. A half swing is not defined. This is true in any slow pitch rules that I have ever dealt with which includes probably anything that you could name. A slap hitter is a very smart and talented batter. I wish that I could have seen both situations, but from the descriptions both sound like a slap hitter. There are not very many of them, but they have a special talent and should not be penalized for that. I admire their skill. That all being said in both slow and fast pitch breaking the wrists is used as a guideline for umpires. Guideline means that you will never find that language in a rule book, nor does it need to be there. Remember that a full swing is not defined, nor does it need to be (except for people who do not understand what a bunt is). Most of us use both entire arms in a swing. Very few of us have mastered slap hitting, but there is always someone in a game that thinks this is cheating somehow. I will think of you and smile fondly the next time that I have one on my field. Have good games. Enjoy your season. Play like every at bat is your last because at our age it could be. Nancy |
| May 25, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | Nancy, for the most part I agree with what you say... but the rule itself could definitely be worded better and then we wouldn't have this once a year complaint about it... again I have never called chopped ball or have I seen it called... as far as as a full swing... I've seen pull hitters take a BIG BOY |
| May 25, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | swing and rip the ball down the line...the next at bat they take an outside pitch and punch or 1/2 swing to the opposite field...in both cases in my book that is a base hit...but in the second case it was NOT a full swing...if you have a rule that states FULL swing then it will always crop up with the teams that have slap hitters..to me the definition of a swing is the bat passing thru the strike zone of the strike mat |
| May 25, 2017 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | B.J., thank you. I already knew that I could not change anyone's opinion. I think the rule books are all fine as they stand. This hardly ever occurs, and all of the information is there if used correctly. You are right, and I admire pull and place hitters too. My dear Coachie's natural swing was to the left side, but he always placed the ball on the right instead. Crackerjack06 had probably the finest point on this about umpires not knowing rules or showing disrespect to players and coaches. The first could be helped by umpires attending clinics or having discussions with each other on situations or rules. Disrespect is an entirely different matter. Yes, I have heard the joke swinging bunt when the ball ends up in front of the plate. If someone finds it in an actual rule book, I owe them an adult beverage and some good softball discussion. Nancy |
| May 26, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | Umpires should never show up players. Most times player carry on toward umpires in that fashion out of pure frustration--their team is getting beat, they are having a bad game individually, etc. And when they see what they think is a bad call they take it out on the ump. The common objection I get to the above scenario is "ump he's gotta break his wrist" Note: if you break your wrist your going to a hospital and it's a good bet you'll be on the injured list for a while. |
