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Discussion: Get rid of Major +

Posted Discussion
March 17, 2017
Adiktiv6
Men's 60
90 posts
Get rid of Major +
On to my 2nd topic.....getting rid of the MajorPlus divisions! This probably been batted around on this forum, just looking to see what's out there idea wise...is i a good or bad idea?

A dik (Paco 06)
March 17, 2017
Adiktiv6
Men's 60
90 posts
oops...is IT a good or bad idea? Thanks
Paco 06
March 17, 2017
E
Men's 60
23 posts
Great idea!!
March 18, 2017
Jawood
Men's 50
937 posts
You would have to get rid of allowing 2 out of region players for the current Major+ teams since that level is the only one that allows it. You couldn't allow everyone have it because it takes money to bring in those players and most teams don't have those type of funds.

It's not an even playing field right now (Major & Major+) but it wouldn't take much to make it so.
March 19, 2017
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
would that mean that M+ players would not be able to play? Only those that got picked up by M teams? Perhaps they would be forced to play down in age groups? Would team that is moved up be forced to disband? Just wondering?
March 19, 2017
titanhd
Men's 60
611 posts
Curty, I would assume that Major and Major+ would combine to one level with some modifications of the current rules Major becoming the top Level as it was when I started playing senior ball.My opinion is to also gid rid of the AA division. We simply have too many levels. IMO.
March 19, 2017
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3208 posts
Agreed Titanhd, get rid of AA division.
Per my other post, just have division 1, 2 and 3. Divide all teams equally into one of the three divisions.
March 19, 2017
Jawood
Men's 50
937 posts
I wouldn't get rid of AA entirely, keeping it as a recreational division only. If you're trying to win a regional and/or world championships, at least play at the AAA level.
March 19, 2017
Airbosn
Men's 70
329 posts
My team is proposing to an association that a 70 Major Plus team should be able to register as a 65 Major team. We are expressing the idea that we would be playing in a younger division, therefore we should drop a rating. Bruce missed you in Montgomery, no M+ or M teams to play.
March 20, 2017
coop3636
479 posts
Just my 2 cents worth
Let the major/major + teams hit 5 and one up with walks (they can hit all the HRs they want to)
Let the AAA/major teams hit 3 and one up with OUTS (keeps it fair for all involved)

AND the big thing is to:

let teams decide what division they want to play in.
Let them play in whatever division they want to for 2 years, then move them up if they are dominating a division, (winning one tourney, no matter which tourney it , should NOT be a mandatory move up)
Teams build a team for a certain division and should NOT be punished for 1 or 2 wins. It breaks up more teams than it does to help build a higher division.
Friends like to play together, we play softball for fun, competition, comradery, its not a job, let it be a fun thing to do.

Make it a 2 year observation, then make a decision.

Just my opinion....
any thoughts?
March 21, 2017
Tri18
351 posts
I have a slightly different view and idea to propose and am interested in getting feedback, I play 50 Major Plus so I do have an experienced perspective on the division. My team, Team 1 Sports/MIKEN does play events all over the country in each of the associations but primarily SSUSA. I see MANY Major teams that could be competitive in the Major Plus division that play down on purpose and avoid at all costs having to play Major Plus. This is very much contradictory to my personal belief that I want to play with the best players I can and against the best competion that I can. Additionally, if you can win 50-60% of the games you play, that's where you should play. So.....I started asking teams " Why aren't you playing Major Plus? " The most popular response: Because we don't want to play 2 or 3 team tournaments when we travel and we have to travel more.....My response: If you and other teams would ELECT to move up to play where you should be playing there would be more Major Plus teams in every tournament and it would clear the way for borderline AAA/Major teams to move up to Major. This is HEALTHY for senior softball in every respect. So here is my idea to help this because I think there needs to be more of a difference between Major and Major Plus designated teams to encourage upward migration.

Make Major teams get 4 home runs and then Outs for any other hr.
Major teams can score 6 runs an inning
Give Major Plus teams 8 home runs and then SINGLES for any additional hr.
Major Plus teams can score 8 runs per inning

If your Major team is constantly being penalized for excessive home runs this gives them more of a desire to move up to the next level. If you are a new but high quality team these rules may entice you to register Major Plus right away.
The game shouldn't be just about hitting home runs but on the other hand players at the very highest levels of competition shouldn't be penalized for hitting them especially by mistake which is quite easy to do. Only giving 8 hr instead of 9 in M+ reinforces the strategy of base hitting and timely home runs in order to maximize scoring potential.

I really feel this type of adjustment would actually improve participation and parity at each level,of senior softball. Major teams needn't be so worried about moving up with these rules in place and might actually embrace it since they have more offensive freedom and potential here. Major division rules should actually hamper teams from staying there and playing down when in all actuality they should be playing M+.
Appreciate everyone's thoughts,

Alan Tanner
Team 1 Sports /Miken
March 21, 2017
16wood
Men's 65
77 posts
Tri 18:
Your views are in line with mine... your experiences are similar to mine... in senior ball and in younger days.
However, there are two driving forces out there that work against implementation of your proposed changes.
1) I've been hearing the same arguments from M/M+ teams for more than 15 years... 'we don't have the money'... 'we don't hit enough HRs to compete'... we don't want to play just 2 or 3 teams'. The last one makes the most sense as far as I'm concerned.
But most M teams simply DO NOT WANT TO COMPETE... history has proven this... the operative phrase is 'most M teams'.
2) SSUSA wants to protect its investment. The M and AAA divisions are its cash cows. They do not want to risk this by combining M and M+ teams... we (M+) are here merely to allow SSUSA to purge certain M teams up. This protects the sanctity of the M divisions for all of the teams/players who seeking their AA or M Lifetime Achievement awards.
Bear in mind, I used the phrase 'certain M teams' purposely. History has shown that some teams receive much more 'understanding' than others.
I did not comment on the possibility of combining AA and AAA teams because I have zero experience with that dilemma. I'm neither for it or against it for that reason.
As long as we continue to rave about 'record turn outs' for WMC and the like, NOTHING will change, IMO.
Bob Woodroof
March 22, 2017
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
my original post was meant to be tongue in cheek! First- from massachusetts, very few of any divisions represented but let me state the obvious. I started as AA @ 55 playing 50's, quickly moved to AAA 50's, now @ 60M,& 65M ( 68yrs). Our teams started as locals now are "regional." There is a place for the team's (AA)to play as they travel much less & are not as talented but want to play. these guys may not be as passionate as some, but they would not play at all if they do not have a chance to be competitive. our M team hits: 60= less than 5 hr's per tournament, 65 also less than 5 hr's per, and being from the northeast our schedule is shortened by weather. My point being we would not be competitive @ M+, so would either disband or at least break up the team. The current structure is effective for AAA & M, with M+ suffering due to lack of teams & AA suffering also, but the division lacks teams due to commitment. Leave it alone. Generally speaking, M+ guys want change to benefit their division, not for the overall game.
March 22, 2017
TAT22
70 posts
I agree 1000%, get rid of Major+. I have been playing Senior ball since '08 and started in the 40 division, been playing + ball for 3 years. All I have seen from the formation of this division is there really is only 2 big tournaments a year, Reno and Worlds' in Vegas. Also the infamous + tag that hangs on a player for 2 years! This in my opinion hurts the player more than benefits the association, especially when it comes to moving up in age bracket.

Lets be real, even though a team may be classified Major+ doesn't mean in the slightest that ALL the players on that team are Major+. Dominance by major+ teams is also a big myth as you never know what injuries will come about and who has a better performance one weekend to the next. I have seen to many games decided by the equalizer because the major+ team lost by either the run differential or in most cases the HR equalizer, this should be an indicator as to how close the competition is between Major and Major+. In my humble opinion not enough to create a separate division.

My two cents.



March 22, 2017
Benji4
Men's 55
260 posts
Alan and Bob you are both right. How about as soon as you win 1 tournament you get bumped up?

Softball associations have begun to cater to mediocrity, so teams will enter tournaments and spend $$$$. Most teams have no desire to get better and move up. Every excuse from travel, $$$, playing the same teams, we can't hit enough HR's, we won't win, and we just play for fun are used to not move up.

If it was truly about competing then why wouldn't your team want to play at the higest level? And for those of you who say you just play for fun then what does it matter if you lose in the M+ division? Afterall winning isn't important it's just for fun.

Since softball is a business, associations must cater to everyone for monetary purposes. It's a shame people don't play for the competiveness rather than worry about not losing, because then there would be 2 divisions, uppers and lowers........
March 22, 2017
bond_171513
Men's 55
71 posts
I have been playing 50M for 2 years and have always been striving for my team and myself to be better with the goal to be M+. I would NOT want M+ to go away. Why would any of us want it to go away? Something to strive for IMO. And, if you are a M team "just playing for fun", wouldn't you WANT there to be a M+?

And...M+ can play in any of the tourneys...yes, they have to give the equalizer, but that is part of the deal. Maybe the only change that can - or should - be made, is a compromise of 7 HR's and 6 runs an inning. Maybe more of them would play the other tourneys...
March 22, 2017
DOERBAUM
Men's 55
82 posts
COMBINE THE MAJOR AND MAJOR+ DIVISIONS. GIVE M TEAMS THE EXTRA PLAYER (SHUT DOWN THE MIDDLE).

PLAY TO THE HIGHER HOME RUN TOTAL + ONE UP. THIS WILL ALLOW THE M+ TEAMS TO PLAY THEIR GAME TO

A POINT. IF THE M TEAM DOSNT HIT THAT MANY HR'S THE M+ TEAM WILL BE FORCED TO REGULATE THEIR HR

OUTPUT OR BE STUCK AT THE END OF THE GAME WITH NONE. 6 RUNS AN INNING FOR M AGAINST M+ TEAMS,

REGULAR RULES FOR LIKE TEAMS PLAYING EACH OTHER. ALWAYS USE ONE UP RULE FOR ALL GAMES. ALSO

ALLOW THE PITCHERS SOME LATITUDE ON PITCH HEIGHT AND SPEED. COMBINE THE RULES AND GO FROM 3'

(USSSA) TO 12' (OLD ASA) AND REALLY CONFUSE THE UMPS....LOL! WITH A HANDFULL OF M+ TEAMS IN OUR

DIVISION (55M+) OUR TEAM IS PLAYING 50M+ TEAMS THIS WEEKEND IN POLK CO. IN THAT SITUATION USE THE

EXTRA PLAYER AND ONE UP AND PLAY BALL. ONE LAST SUGGESTION. ALLOW 15 MINUTES MORE FOR GAME

TIMES. ALL THE COMPLEXES WE PLAY AT HAVE LIGHTS.....USE THEM.
March 22, 2017
stick8
1965 posts
I have been fortunate to have played 50 major plus 8 of the last 9 years (one year I played 55 major plus). Combining m and m+ wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing but in my experiences it's not an urgent thing. Yes we've played where we're the only plus team and by rule we give up 5 runs or an extra fielder. IMHO, if m and m+ were combined or even if they play as it is now, I'd get rid of the "equalizers" and play straight up ball. HR and runs per inning rule can be modified--perhaps splitting the difference? That would be up for debate. There are some damn good m teams that can compete with the + teams without the equalizers!!
March 22, 2017
Mango
Men's 50
157 posts
How About?,
Tim is that you? I've missed you :-)

Heard you were busy working on legislation to get the New England Patriots to have to give equalizers to the rest of the NFL next year, to require UCon's womens" basket ball team to play in the mens' division next year and to remove the 27 World Championships won by the New York Yankees from the record books.
Welcome back!
Mango
March 22, 2017
Yank1
Men's 50
6 posts
Tri18... How much fun did you and your team have in Valley last year where you played a 2 out of 3 against a 55 Major+ team? I realize you had to play in a tournament to qualify for Dalton so you had no choice. But if a team in the South is moved up to Major + (outside of Florida)... and has a limited budget... that would be the reality for them at every tournament. The issue isn't competing with an equalizer... the issue is playing the same team best 2 out of 3 after pool play is over. No one wants to go to tournament after tournament and play the same team (not teams) every weekend. That's not fun for anyone.
March 22, 2017
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3208 posts
I'm guessing posters here are telling how many years they've played major plus so we can see their perspective.
As for me I've played major plus for 12 years out of my 16 years in senior softball.

One problem, besides being able to only play another team two out of three games, is that in some qualifiers other teams won't play you at all, even when offered the 5 runs or the additional defensive player.

The only recourse is to play nationals. Some years our schedule looked like this: TOC, SSUSA Spring Nationals, ISF World Cup, ISSA World Championships, SPA Nationals, LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters and finally the SSUSA Winter Nationals.
That's only 7 tournaments. Most years we didn't play in the SSUSA Winter Nationals so that left 6.
This is what a major plus team would have to look forward to.
If they don't have a generous sponsor it would be prohibitive to most players.
March 22, 2017
stick8
1965 posts
Point well taken Yank1. But correct me if I'm mistaken but in playing 50 major plus I was under the impression we didn't have to play a qualifier to be eligible for the worlds in Dalton. At least the teams I played on never did.
March 23, 2017
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3208 posts
You are correct Stick
March 23, 2017
Yank1
Men's 50
6 posts
i apologize if i was wrong about needing to play in a tournament to qualify to play in Dalton but that makes my point even stronger. Team 1 Sports traveled over 500 miles to play in a 2 team best 2 out of 3 equalizer against a team in a higher age bracket. No team wants to be moved to Major Plus and have that be their reality.
March 23, 2017
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3208 posts
I agree Yank!
And, by the way, for being wrong, you are banned from posting here for six months. Oh, wait a minute, you've only posted three time in 4 or 5 years! ;)
See you Tuesday.
March 23, 2017
Fabe
Men's 60
444 posts
Great discussions...in my state's reality....being a 50 M player has strangled my availability to play with many of my friends! I just turned 60 n tho I train in a serious way (because I enjoy surfing winter waves!), have decided not to play against those 10yrs younger than myself. But due to number of teams n lower rangings, I am having difficulties playing with guys my age. Oh well, I will continue to pursue teams I can play with due to my ambition to play! Stay safe n healthy my Braddahs! Aloha, Fabe
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