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Discussion: Trump Rock

Posted Discussion
Nov. 28
Capt Kirk

541 posts
Is the Rock softball, 44/375, to expensive to be the standard bearer for all SSUSA Tournaments? The Rock is the ball that is used in the World Championship in Vegas, but I believe that is the only SSUSA tournament that it is used.
Nov. 28
J R

251 posts
Tournament directors have to buy the balls Regular Trump 39.00 and the MCT 60.00 they will choose the lesser.
Nov. 28
B94
Men's 50
138 posts
If they are going to continue to use the Trump Stote they need to up the quality of the ball so it isn't so temperature sensitive. It's mush when it's hot and humid and just ok in the dry cool air. There have to be better balls available at a similar price point...
Nov. 28
Dbax
Men's 65
2102 posts
We already swing hot bats. Now you want the hottest ball too? I say no. It's already to the point where just about anybody can hit a home run. What's the point? Besides, without any seams, the Rock ball knuckles like crazy.
Nov. 28
curveball
Men's 65
705 posts
Rock has been in play at the SW Worlds played in Las Vegas also.
Nov. 29
B94
Men's 50
138 posts
I agree the Rock is too hot however a ball that plays in the middle between the Stote and the Rock would be a nice compromise.
Nov. 29
Fred S
Men's 85
297 posts
The price for the MCT at $60.00 is retail. In quantity they would be a lot closer to the $39.00.
Dec. 1
Capt Kirk

541 posts
This may explain why LP hit one out in the Rocking Reno several years ago, temp was around 60 and the wind was blowing at 20-25 mph:
As a player, you should also be aware that weather has an enormous impact on the compression of a softball. Studies have shown that when the temperature is 100 degrees, an average softball looses 200 pounds of compression as compared with the same softball at 60 degrees. This means that a softball that is a 525 pound compression ball at 60 degrees may play like a 375 pound ball at 100 degrees. In addition, clouds, rain, and humidity also affect the compression of a ball. 70 degrees and sunny creates lower compression balls than if it was 70 degrees and cloudy. Leather balls generally take on more moisture in rainy or humid conditions than synthetic balls. This will generally raise the compression and level of play up to a point, then performance will decline once the ball takes on too much water and becomes too heavy.
Dec. 1
J R

251 posts
Fred how many dozen.We buy 100 dozen @ a time paying 30.00 for the Stote. 56 is best we have been quoted for the MCT
Dec. 1
Tri18

352 posts
JR,
If in fact you are buying 100 dozen balls at one time and are ready to make such a purchase of 100 dozen balls at one time get with me and I can help you.
AT18
Team 1 Sports
Dec. 2
Bobby Buggs

90 posts
JR, Next to the standard Trump balls no one buys more Trump products than I do with Evil. Feel free to hit me up if you would like to discuss this. Im sure I can get you what you need.
Dec. 2
JamesLG

421 posts

I don't know what the best ball would be but the Trump Stote we use now in most of the tournaments gets worse every year. I am not a HR hitter but still like to hit a good ball. It is time for a change and it would be nice for this topic to be discussed at the SSUSA summit meeting. If it is about $ I am sure most teams would gladly spend a few extra $ to hit a good ball. If it is not about $ then lets give it a shot.

Thanks:

James
Dec. 4
Capt Kirk

541 posts
PH.D's breaking the down the science:

"Softball" - A Contradiction In Terms
by Ronald D. Noebe, Ph.D. and Mark McDowell, Ph.D.

More homeruns hit than ever before!
Games taking longer to play!

It Must Be The Bats?

There is no doubt that softball bats today are highly engineered "tools" made out of sophisticated lightweight structural materials with the sole purpose of propelling a ball faster and farther than ever before. Bats get all the press and therefore, all the blame. But there has been a more insidious change in equipment that has been mostly overlooked, and yet can impact the game much more than the bat- It's THE BALL!

Nevertheless, softball associations have focused their attention on bat performance testing and stricter regulations (more on this in future articles), while softballs have received much less scrutiny in recent years. Current softballs are very simple yet efficient pieces of equipment, (see Figure 1 - Parts of a Softball). They consist of three basic parts. A leather or synthetic cover, a raised stitched seam, and a solid polymer (polyurethane) core. It is this solid polymer core that controls the bulk properties of the ball such as COR and compression.
Note: Here is the complete article:
http://www.bomani.com/BSRI2010/BSRI_2010_Members/softball_articles/BSRI-04_softballs.html
Dec. 6
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Thanks capt Kirk.
That a pretty good read.
I believe their point is to limit the compression/ hardness of the ball as a means to regulate max batted ball speed and distance.
However, afik most leagues and tournaments are already at the low end of the compression scale by using .44/375 balls.

Regardless of bat or ball, players and manufacturers and leagues appear content to max out on the performance end of the scale where ever possible.

As already mention in the latest installment of the "shaved bat" thread, performance is often at odds with player safety.

In their paper, the authors almost addresses the potential for using ball compression as a means to enhance player safety.

By balancing the relative contribution of COR and compression it may be possible for the average old guy to still hit 100 mph missles with less likelihood of breaking the bones of defensive players.

One example that comes to mind would be ball velocities seen in professional tennis.

Getting hit iin the face with a ball having the compression equivalent of "rolled up socks " will be less damaging...even if balanced with a COR and bat that still has the potential for 100 mph exit speeds
Regards,
Bill
Dec. 8
CaliBraves
Men's 40
18 posts
I rarely respond to any discussions on here, but this time wanted to share my opinion.

For the majority of us playing in Seniors today, we all remember swinging the aluminum bats. During this time, you had base hitters and only true HR hitters hit HR's. It's how the game was meant to be played.

Today, everyone in the lineup can hit it out because of technology. I say bring on the mush ball. The only ones complaining will be the guys who batting average drops from .800 to .475, because they are not hitting 3 HR's every game.

Playing in the Arizona heat during the summer, we at times have issues with the ball becoming mushy and the next thing you know everyone is complaining saying no one is going to hit a HR today. Not a true statement, it only means, you're not going to hit a HR today. Maybe next time during batting practice you will work on your basehits instead of the long ball.

This statement is not directed towards anyone. It is only my personal opinion.


Kevin Bourgeois
Dec. 8
B94
Men's 50
138 posts
The 52/300 ball is relatively consistent in all weather. It would be nice to find a 44/375 that performs similarly. I've played with both and though I have gotten used to playing with the 52/300 (it still flies well if you spin it) I sure like the feel and sound of a good 44/375 ball coming off the bat when you've made good contact...
Dec. 26
Matt43

22 posts
I remember hitting the double wall bats in the 1990's and just as today, it depended on the ball as to how far we hit it. I remember using Worth 50 cores and even 58 cores. Believe me, you could hit those balls a mile and not be a "homerun"
hitter.
With all Senior bats 1.21, it is the ball that truly determines the distance. Hitting the same Rocks, in batting practice, over the last 3 years (10 players, 80 balls each a week, 40 weeks a year for 3 years), there is no doubt the reliability of this ball in all weather conditions. Even at 70 years of age I still like to hit the best ball available.
Maybe SSUSA could use the Stote for the AA and AAA and let the Major and Major Plus use the Rock.








Dec. 26
Omar Khayyam

1357 posts
I am not a fan of the Trump Stote since we only hit it in SSUSA tournaments in Sacramento, where the heat is often in the 90s or more, and the decline in the afternoon is very noticeable. In our other NCSSA tournaments, we hit the Baden Fireball which holds up extremely well in hot temperatures.

That said, my older team is not a fan of the Rock used in Las Vegas. We find it too hot, even playing against our age group. For every marginal long ball hitter on our major team who might reach the fence, we have a dozen who have trouble fielding this hot ball as it flashes past, or get bushed chasing it to the wall when opponents hit it long. And, as stated yet again in recent posts by others, it is probably illegally labeled and is much hotter than the label indicates. It's a "trick pony" ball that we tolerate in Las Vegas once a year, but would not want to use regularly.
Dec. 27
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
omar...you are exactly right..about the MCT BALL.....yes the MCT ball gets around the comp of the ball actually being 375....its closer to 500......if we need to change the 52/300 ball would be the better ball to go to......the hr hitters (the real ones)will still get their hrs and no one gets killed by the ball.....
Dec. 27
Gorilla Boy
Men's 50
271 posts
I have to say that I would always use a 44/375 ball no matter what company it is made by for senior softball. Just my .02 cents worth which is not worth a hill of red beans. People will say that the real home run hitters will hit home runs and the ones that shouldn't won't. I for one like a league or tournament where there is hardly any complaining and lets play ball. Once the 52/300 is used for tournaments that you have to pay for you should try and make it where there is less complaining. I feel with a 44/375 you achieve that. Like I said it is only my thoughts.

Mighty Mike Macenko
aka: Gorilla Boy
Dec. 28
Omar Khayyam

1357 posts
mad dog, I am coming around to your opinion about using the 52/300 ball. I have no problem, even as a pitcher, having a true home run batter hitting a blast off of me. I watch it sail just like everyone else. I even brag about the super long balls that these boomers hit no matter whose team they are on.

I do have a problem with pipsqueaks like me hitting a hot ball to the wall with our composite bats. Or bopping an infielder or pitcher on a screaming line drive. Or driving a ground ball through the hole before an infielder can take a step. Since it seems a lost cause to ever rein in these hot bats, the 52/300 would restore the competition of the game, be safer for those occasionally plunked, and bring some balance back to defenders and strategists.
Dec. 29
mad dog
Men's 65
4191 posts
and omar..kevin (tattooball)has made the ball better.....its an all weather cover along with the ball being better in play .......aka not a lot of bad bounces like some used to complain about....like i said..we have been using it for the last 3-4 yrs and no one complains like when the stote was used.....or even any of the regular 44/375 balls......
Jan. 3
SS11

60 posts
I get that SSUSA provides teams with a set number of balls per tournament, but the teams have to buy the rest of their balls, which can be a lot when you consider the HR rules. Where it seems to become a racket is that SSUSA requires you to buy 1 certain ball from them. If SSUSA isn't making money off the balls, why not allow a few different balls to be played, and SSUSA doesn't provide any balls and reduce the entry fees accordingly (the cost of the provided balls)? This allows teams to purchase their own balls at the best cost possible to them, and removes the hassle of SSUSA from having to purchase, store, and transport balls. If they want they can still purchase balls in bulk and offer them for sale at their tournaments (which I am sure most directors would "invest" in the ball that teams are most likely to purchase).
Jan. 3
SSUSA Staff

3509 posts
SS11 ... That works fine for us so long as every team and every Tournament Director agrees to comply with the policy that the ONLY authorized ball for SSUSA sanctioned play is the Anaconda Trump STOTE for all events except the two co-sanctioned with LVSSA in Las Vegas (the Trump ROCK being the ONLY ball authorized there) ... Our national contract with Anaconda/BSN precludes the use of other brands of softballs ...

Jan. 4
SS11

60 posts
Original question I asked- "Why not allow a few different balls to be played, and SSUSA doesn't provide any balls and reduce the entry fees accordingly?" Then there is no reason for SSUSA to have a national contract with a ball supplier, and they open the balls up to the core/compression they set (44/375) but not by manufacturer. We are talking about a Not-for-Profit organization, so why not reduce the workload and red tape?
Jan. 4
SSUSA Staff

3509 posts
SS11 • The principal reason we do it our way is to maintain consistency across all (but the two Las Vegas events) qualifier and Championship tournaments ... The qualifier concept is effective only if all events run under the same rules sanction and authorized equipment for bats and softballs ... And, yes, we are a not-for-profit public benefit corporation, but the financial side of that national contract is important as well to offset some of the costs we incur to run the events ... Yours was certainly a fair question, just irrelevant in the context of our current business model ...

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