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Discussion: Courtesy runner replacement on a base.

Posted Discussion
Oct. 11, 2016
Steve in Tucson
Men's 70
22 posts
Courtesy runner replacement on a base.
Referring to Rule 8.5(5), a courtesy runner is in the game when he touches a base. The question arose whether another courtesy runner can take his place without being called out after he touches the base before a pitch has been thrown and the umpire had called time out after the previous play. It is my interpretation of the rule that once a courtesy runner has touched the base, if another runner takes his place at any time, except for injury, regardless of whether time out was called or not, the second runner is out per rule 8.5(5). Please confirm. Thank you.
Oct. 12, 2016
B.J.
934 posts
yes you are correct....and if it is not caught before a pitch... An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter.
Oct. 12, 2016
curty
Men's 60
183 posts
years ago i helped to make available a booklet of case studies for umpire's that was a guide to challengeing game situations. It outlined as many unique situations as our committee could present ( to be issued & used by rookies.) The idea was to cover those rule interpretations not spelled out or foggy in the book, including this one. As rule interpretations are a huge part of this message board, perhaps some of the knowledgeable people here could assemble such a publication for general use! Of course, per approval of Board, & UIC's. There are different scenario's in Senior ball that should be addressed!
Oct. 12, 2016
JBTexas
Men's 70
414 posts
BJ, before first pitch only comes into play if he just scored, other wise he can be called out anytime it is discovered while on base.
Oct. 12, 2016
rightrj1
Men's 55
282 posts
here's one for you;

Base hit, batter gets a courtesy runner at 1st base, next batter comes up and get a hit, runners now at 1st and 2nd...

The courtesy runner at 2nd is now replaced with another courtesy runner, so that he can enter the game as a Sub to pinch hit for another player. (1st courtesy runner was not in the game)

I was always told that you can't have a courtesy runner for a courtesy runner! but the coach argued that he was making a Substitution therefore it was a legal switch...The Umpires agreed with the coach..... I bitched for 3 days, that this was not the case..

Please someone tell me I'm correct, before i pull this trigger! LOL
Oct. 12, 2016
coop3636
459 posts
I did this in Vegas this year
The UIC said it was legal.
You cannot have a courtesy runner run for another courtesy runner, but can change the runner out if you make a substitution for the original batter. (the one who was suppose to be on the base in the first place)
This is what I did. The other coach argued and the UIC came over and made the ruling in our favor.
Hope this helps
coop3636

Maybe SSUSA will verify.
Oct. 12, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3160 posts
rightjr1 and coop3636 TWO incorrect calls resulting in an unfortunate "daily double" for the crews in green ...

rightjr1: Rulebook 8.5(3) is totally unambiguous about this, and it was simply a blown call ... Here's the rule: "..A courtesy runner may not be replaced by another courtesy runner except for injury causing removal of the original courtesy runner permanently from the game.."

coop3636: Same regarding the International Tie Breaker Rule at Rulebook 5.4(2) ... No ambiguity in the language there, either: "..Teams start each half-inning with a runner on second base. The runner is the last batter of the previous inning whose turn at bat had been completed, assuming a position on second base. No substitute or courtesy runner may replace him until he has reached third base. EFFECT: If the last batter of the previous inning cannot continue to play because of injury, illness, etc., he will be declared out and the next previous batter will be the tie-breaker runner.." [emphasis added]

Oct. 12, 2016
rightrj1
Men's 55
282 posts
Staff...THANK YOU SO MUCH...I'm putting my bullets away! LOL
Oct. 12, 2016
coop3636
459 posts
I will concede if you say so, but...
As you wrote, rule 8.5(3) says nothing about making a lineup change (sub) and changing that person for the courtesy runner. It only says " " a courtesy runner may not be replaced by another courtesy runner....
Maybe the wording needs to be changed in the next rules meeting.
coop3636
That was my argument and why the ump agreed with me.
I will concede the rule thou, just clarify it in the next book (use the same wording as the tie breaker rule and it will be totally clear.
Oct. 12, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3626 posts
Agreed: It's a very simple fix, and I can name that fix in two words: "..A courtesy runner may not be replaced by another courtesy runner or substitute except for injury causing removal of the original courtesy runner permanently from the game.."
Oct. 12, 2016
coop3636
459 posts
I'm glad that is taken care of..lol
now what's next to discuss?
Oct. 12, 2016
stick8
1932 posts
Scenario: Stick8 gets a single and gets a courtesy runner, coop3636 because coop is much faster. The only way coop3636 can get a courtesy runner is if he gets injured and is unable to return to the game, correct?
Oct. 12, 2016
coop3636
459 posts
this scenario would never happen
I'm not faster then anybody....
Oct. 12, 2016
B.J.
934 posts
stick....yes ....Rulebook 8.5(3) "..A courtesy runner may not be replaced by another courtesy runner except for injury causing removal of the original courtesy runner permanently from the game.."
Oct. 12, 2016
Steve in Tucson
Men's 70
22 posts
WOW! I didn't realize I was opening Pandora's box, but the conversation is good. Thanks to all who weighed in. It does help me.
Oct. 16, 2016
Mike Fossil's 60's
Men's 65
7 posts
So does the umpire make the out call or does the defense need to alert the umpire to the call?
Oct. 16, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3160 posts
Mike ... This is NOT an appeal play. The umpire may make that call at any time (s)he becomes aware of the violation. In the vast majority of cases, becoming aware of it is the result of the team on defense raising the issue. But we have seen (and affirmed) umpires making the proper call "unprovoked" ...

Steve ... We have a LOT of "Pandoras" here who just love to play Stump the Ump ... Thanks for starting this one! ...

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