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Discussion: which do your prefer on a 5 game guarantee?

Posted Discussion
May 28, 2016
coop3636
468 posts
which do your prefer on a 5 game guarantee?
SSUSA has a 5 game guarantee for most tournaments.
It is either a 3 game RR, then DBL elimination or
2 game RR and a 3 game wrap around
Which do you prefer and why?

I like the 2 game RR , then the 3 game wrap around.
It makes more of the games actually mean something.

Lets hear what everyone thinks

Brett cooper
May 28, 2016
neck10
709 posts
I like it the other way you can play the guy;s that don't get to play as much early if your short in the 60's at least play on Friday a lot some player's work and cant be there so then when you start tourney if your on(playing well)it doesn't matter but if your bad you get your rear end kicked and go home don't get that extra thrashing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 28, 2016
Fred S
Men's 85
297 posts
Agree with neck10. 3 games allows you to play your subs more that probably won't play in the double elimination rounds.
May 28, 2016
hemi racer
Men's 65
237 posts
Yep, three pool games, then dbl. elimination. At our age it gives the manger one more game to see whose on and whose not that weekend.
May 28, 2016
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
91 posts
Hey dude that oversees the Phoenix tourneys,
To play five (5) games !!
Sorry folks.... I am okay.
May 29, 2016
Lefty
Men's 70
713 posts
I like 5. That way I know I will play 3 games.
May 29, 2016
Enviro-Vac
Men's 65
466 posts
Prefer 3 game RR and double KO for the same reason as stated by hemi racer
May 29, 2016
Don5
Men's 65
63 posts
when SSUSA started that practice several years ago, it allowed the "superior teams to relax a bit. Twice the team I was playing on was eliminated by a team that already had 2 losses, never wanted that type of tourney . But I realize that it takes less games. That only benefits the tourney hosts, I see that SSUSA will use the 3 game seeding in the 65 in Lost Wages this year, glad to see that, my Animal team had to play 6 games on the 3rd day to win the Championship. Too many games in one day for guys way over 65.
May 30, 2016
Gavin5
Men's 70
29 posts
Traditional 3 pool,then double elim preferred. But if the DE w/3 game guarantee reduces total games to the point that a 3-day tourney can be shortened to 2 days, I'm all for it. Not a likely probability.
May 30, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3185 posts
Seems like it's time to recycle this one again, for the sixth time - REPRINT OF MESSAGE BOARD POST FROM 2006, 2011, 2012 (twice) and 2014 ON TOPIC:

There are three principal reasons SSUSA adopted (in 2006) the two Round Robin into Three-Game-Guarantee Bracket (2RR/3GG) format for brackets of five or more teams –

1. A strong majority of teams believe that the ‘real’ tournament begins only when the elimination bracket begins, regardless of its structure. The 2RR/3GG format gets teams into the brackets earlier and keeps them there longer, meeting that majority belief while still complying with the five game guarantee offered in SSUSA events.

2. The 2RR/3GG format requires less total games than the former 3RR/DE structure. With the growth in the number of teams being at a faster rate than the availability of new playing facilities, ‘every game counts’ in scheduling.

3. In any division with an odd number of teams playing a three-game seeding, one of those teams must play an “exhibition” game that doesn’t count in the standings, but is that team’s fourth game prior to the bracket. Almost all teams that draw that extra game believe it is unfair. There are no “exhibition” games in the 2RR/3GG format.

The 3GG format is also the industry norm for the ASA, NSA, USSSA and almost all other significant softball associations, and it's not likely to change in the foreseeable future for SSUSA.

May 30, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
2010 posts
Got to agree with that.
May 30, 2016
Jawood
Men's 50
937 posts
Would like to see the RR games mean more than seeding because you can see a bunch of new guys show up on Saturday for an 0-2 team sometimes. Give the higher seeds the hammer, now you're playing for something and those games are much more important.

Like the 3 day tournaments for the "bigger" and more "destination" places they are held. As for some of the events they are just glorified local tournaments that can easily be played in 2 days.
May 30, 2016
Country13
17 posts
Why not keep it simple 4 game guarantee with 2 pool then dbl elimination. This new way is way to confusing to too many people,not me but have seen it called by a TD triple elimination tournament. Most do not understand this setup.in a ten team division only one or two teams may not get there 5. The rest will get their 5 games in no matter. In some tournaments other than associations get more money for this because of less total games without the 3 pool games. Just my opinion. Have seen this cause mass confusion at several tournaments because of TD not understanding the format.
May 31, 2016
coop3636
468 posts
To SSUSA staff..
here is your quote: "There are three principal reasons SSUSA adopted (in 2006) the two Round Robin into Three-Game-Guarantee Bracket (2RR/3GG) format for brackets of five or more teams" –

We are playing in Gallatin, TN this weekend in the
50-55 gold division (6 teams) but is scheduled for a 3RR/2GG format.
Why do your rules say one thing and then the tournament does another>?

Thanks in advance

Coop3636
May 31, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3185 posts
coop3636 ... The 2RR/3GG format for a 5-game guarantee is not a rule, but rather a policy preference for most SSUSA events ... This is a jointly sanctioned tournament by ISA and SSUSA and the schedule was written by the Tournament Director who is also a National Director for both associations ... We are completely comfortable with that structure because it meets the desired games goal and, in fact, we approved it in advance ... Good luck!
May 31, 2016
VOODOOSPORTS
Men's 40
34 posts
I would take either one over what we play in Flagstaff this weekend (June 4/5) 3 game round robin then single elim.

SSUSA did you approve this one as well? play 3 games that don't matter as much then out of tourney if you lose 1 game??????
May 31, 2016
coop3636
468 posts
I would NEVER play in a senior tournament that was single elimination
The young kids play it all the time and I think it SUCKS.
Just my 2 cents.

Voodoo.. Did you know this was the format before your went or was this because of weather (still no excuse for a single elim.)
May 31, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
2010 posts
Voodoo, that's what you get in Flagstaff with that director. He does whatever he wants. Good luck.
May 31, 2016
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
91 posts
To those who need clarification, DBax is talking about the same director as I did previously in this chain.
FYI, for those who are interested ..... The Pinetop tourney and some of the Anthem tourney's are being done by someone else. Go to them, we will be.
Laters.
May 31, 2016
Ho
301 posts
How about a six game round robin guaranreed six gmaes against six different teams from your own age and rating division, team with best record is the champ. We have been running our tournament that way the past six years and average around 80 AA and AAA teams (do not bring in majors). This year 80 teams. Always have at leasr 14 teams in each division with the exception of 80's (only six) and fields limit us to eight 50's and eight 55's. The 70's(16), 75's (17) and 80's play three days (2 games a day), the rest play two days (3 games a day)

Ho
May 31, 2016
joel 1975
131 posts
be nice but can you find a six team bracket in anything but AA & AAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 31, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 70
3727 posts
Reno this week: 60-Major (9), 65-Major (10), 50-Major (10), 55-Major+ (7) and 55-Major (7) are just this week's over six and over AAA/AA examples for one tournament.
May 31, 2016
TimMcElroy
820 posts
coop3636-

I am the person that wrote the schedules for the ISA / SSUSA Southeast Championships. I thank you (and all teams) for participating in this event.

There are 2 reasons that I built them in that manner that I did.
Well, 3 actually-

1) Simplification: It is impossible to run a 3gg bracket in divisions with 4 or fewer teams.

By setting the tournament up as I did, every team in this tournament (even your 6 team division) now has the exact same format- 3 pool games into a double elimination.

My goal was to simplify things and avoid the question that was certain to come- "Why do we play this, and they play that?"


2) Fairness to all teams: Your TN Connection team requested a late start. That request, coupled with other field constraints have an impact on start times, finish times and bracket setup for every other team in the tournament. Using an alternate format would have led to extended breaks between games for some and the possibility of playing just 1 game on a particular day for another. Neither of those options would have been popular.

As constructed, every team in your division finishes their pool games at the same exact same time. Nobody has to wait around or make phone calls to obtain their next game assignment. The same logic applies in the other divisions, too.


3) Tournament Flavor: There are teams from 8 states coming to this tournament. I've had your TN Connection 55s team in other events and you have been extremely vocal about not wanting to play in small brackets, or playing against the same team multiple times in a tournament. The existing schedule puts that argument to bed before it even begins.


See you at the park-

Tim




May 31, 2016
VOODOOSPORTS
Men's 40
34 posts
Coop
This is the schedule for this up coming weekend. No we did not know this was going to be the format when we paid. Still would have played to get out of the heat in Tucson (113 this weekend)
Just wanted to know if SSUSA approved this format also?

I don't know what the format is for the other age groups, this is just for the 40s.
May 31, 2016
Ho
301 posts
Joel
We have SIX 80's, a six and a seven team 75 division, a 4 team 75 major (only majors we invite). a seven and a seven 65 division, seven 50's, eight 55's, a seven and a seven 70's divisions and a seven and seven 60's division. All AA and AAA.
Little hard in the 60;s because for some reason thete is a shortage of 60 AA teams so we play them with the 65's which are not as strong as the other seven.

Which means 13 Divisions and 13 champions all who will have played six games Makes it easier scheduling. Our schedule has been up for two weeks and everybocy knows what time, what field and who they play. Can't do the with a DE.

Not looking for six team braclets in other divsions, just AA and AAA.

Ho
May 31, 2016
VOODOOSPORTS
Men's 40
34 posts
Please note I am in no way complaining about our format. I am very happy with our SSUSA director and the events he offers.
May 31, 2016
SKings24
53 posts
I feel the Pool Play games should have some meaning and the higher seeds get Home Team in bracket play. Currently there is no incentive to play to win if you are not offered some type of reward for placing high in seed. Its a coin flip all the way through the bracket games.
June 1, 2016
coop3636
468 posts
Tim,

I appreciate the work that goes into running a tournament (did it twice a year for 20 years)
I was not complaining about the tournament structure, I was just trying to get to clarification on how things are done.
There seems to be NO consistency in any of the tournaments. (even in the same association)
The rules and structures seem to change every tournament and sometimes changes between games.
I would be glad to discuss the particulars anytime with you, if interested.
I love the game and just try to make it better.
This can happen if each association would have all their directors try and use the same formats, rules, balls, time limits, #of umps, entry fees, awards etc.
Brett

PS.. Again, thanks for putting on the tournament.
June 1, 2016
nickname36
58 posts
I don't know what your winning about, the flagstaff(seifman) tournament are not a sanctioned senior softball tournament. The director can set up the senior tournament anyway he wants, its for his benefit. You still play by the senior rules according to age but the rest is up to the tournament director.

Go to southern californa and play in there tournaments, socalssa.com its the same thing as arizonas senior tournaments. There still senior tournaments but not sanctioned by sacramento. They go with a 5 game and done, 3 on Saturday, 2 on sunday.....375$ for this weekend in cali.... Still play the senior rules according to age, balls(rock) and is far better competition then in flagstaff.
June 1, 2016
nickname36
58 posts
Hey Dbax, you can put on a senior softball tournament if you like and make up the rules as you see fit, charge what you want, use whatever ball you want, GO FOR IT big guy if you think you can do better......

You could alway do what cali does, give the teams 6 balls 375/44 rocks, when there gone or lost or whatever you can use any 375/44 ball in your bag. I was in perris BLD a few weeks ago and a team was using a victory lane stamped ball, hey it was 375/44.
June 1, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
2010 posts
Lighten up Nickname. (anonymous by the way). For your info, he did the same thing for a SSUSA sanctioned qualifier. By the way, spellcheck is your friend.
June 2, 2016
garyheifner
609 posts
I am all in with you COOP3636 Would rather play games with real MEANING.
June 2, 2016
nickname36
58 posts
Dbax, thats "nickname36" not "nickname" and its "MR. NICKNAME36" to you.....LOL LOL

Speaking of spell check Dbax, spell check its two words, maybe spell check should become your friend.....
June 2, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
2010 posts
Glad you found someone to type the last message for you! It's almost correct.
June 15, 2016
Wayne 37
Men's 65
773 posts
Thanks for the info, Mr. numbnuts36....LOL LOL
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